Hi Daltond -

I can tell you this about the tipping that I have done in the past year to my guides. The tips that I leave are based on my experience and whether or not the guide made my trip or portion of my trip wonderful. My family and I were in Kenya last May and had three different guides as we were at three different parks and all three of them received different tips.Our tips were not related to how often they got to see their families or what they made but based on our experience. The second guide was the absolute worst and as such he received the lowest tip. Our third and final guide was fantastic and he received the best tip of all. He was wonderful and really helped to make our time in the Mara a dream come true. It is something we still talk about today when we are all together. We also brought t-shirts from our home town (Chicago) and gave them to each (not the second driver but we did give it to somebody at camp who gave us excellent service)of our drivers as a token of our appreciation. It was a last minute idea but the smiles we received made it all worth it.

My Mom and I followed the same type of tipping when we were in Morocco. It is based on your knowledge of the area and more importantly your passion for what you do. If you can pass that excitement on to me and make me even more excited than congrats to you and I will tip you accordingly.

Hope this helps!

Hello daltond,
I don’t recognise this situation at all and I don’t understand why anyone would feel more “sorry” for a local guide. I’ve been to Kenya and local guides at camps see their families a lot more than guides from Nairobi. Or, are you an expat living your dream in Africa and the “locals” are the citizens of the country? Then I certainly understand why the guests didn’t feel sorry for you. Or, are you a white African from the city calling black people from the countryside “locals”? Then maybe the guests confused you with some kind of expat doing guiding for fun. Anyway, I’ve never felt sorry for a guide; local or not, they probably earn more money than the average citizen in all African countries and I’ve never met a guide who felt sorry for himself. I feel sorry for people with boring jobs (like myself) and who in Africa also are paid very low salaries. When tipping I investigate what’s expected and try to tip a little bit more than that, not because I’ve “felt sorry” for the guides and not even because they’ve been particularly competent, but because I want them to like me. You’re probably from some country I haven’t been to. I’d have tipped you.

I have never had that feeling for any guide,local or others.I think they have a very nice job and much better tips than ,for example ,the staff cleaning the tents..etc.

After 5 safaris i have never had a guide telling me about how much time he is away from the family or things like that,unless i ask.

I always tip my guides for the quality of service i get and for what is usual to tip per person per day in that area or country.

Paco.

Daltond

I don't have a lot of experience with a variety of lodges but I'm honestly having trouble relating to your post. Neither my game ranger nor tracker nor anyone else where I stayed ever made me feel like I should feel sorry of them. They were all incredibly upbeat and seemed to love their jobs. Our tip was based on what was we had researched to be the "standard" tip and because we were so happy with our game ranger and tracker and the overall staff we gave more than the standard. This was not a "pity" tip but a thank you for such a wonderful experience.

Bob

For me it's the quality experience that determines the size of the tip. I've had both local and non-local guides and have heard the sob stories from both. I don't mind hearing the complaints or woes at all, makes for interesting talk over sundowners. I don't necessarily feel sorry for them, and it doesn't make me give a larger tip, but give me an experience of a lifetime (Foster at Somalisa) and your tip will be quite large. Let your problems at home take over your attitude and way you guide, and your tip will be quite small.

I have never been given a sob story about anything by any guide whether local or not. When I ask in general terms about a guide's personal life, usually the answers indicate a much tougher existence than mine. But I tip only on service, not on circumstances and have been very pleased with the efforts of my guides/rangers/trackers. Perhaps seeking sympathy tips is more common in a certain region that I have not visited and that's why I've never encountered it.

I cannot imagine guests who were pleased with your services not tipping you. Did they perhaps think you were the camp manager? Even in that situation, if the manager acts as my guide, I have always tip.

How annoying to come out on the short end of the tips so often for something you cannot control.

daltond,
What's your definition of "local"?

Can't say I've had any guide give me a sob story either.

Daltond,

I have to say that my tips are based on the amount of time that I have spent with the guide, and the quality of that time. If the guide has gone out of his (sorry I haven't had a female guide -yet)way to make me happy, it = higher tip. I usually arrive pretty educated on what is going on in the area that I am visiting, but I do want to hear from a "locals" perspective. I don't want a "sob story", nor have I heard any, and folks are usually a little hesitant to discuss the realities of how bad it is (in Zim at least, I have found that they have quite an upbeat, make a plan and work around it attitude). I have not heard any "sob stories" in any of my travels, and I think if I were to have someone really lay it on heavy, it would turn me off.

Generally my guiding time has been broken into two sections with two wonderful guides, who get the same amount of tip per day spent with them, same for their camp staff, unless there is a problem or special occurrence noted, then that is taken into consideration as well.

In 13/years haven't heard a sob story from a guide, ranger, tracker or staff member in southern or eastern Africa.

If you mean by others, those guides/rangers from another country, well, yes... as the case of many white Zimbabweans who have left and are working in South Africa and Botswana and Kenya/Tanzania. Is this the difference - "other"? Black vs white?

Have I asked guides/rangers or staff about their schedules, time off from work, families, etc.? Of course, as often it's general conversation as they are interested in us visitors. Never once have I heard a complaint. Most, in fact, are pleased to be working and meeting visitors from all over the world.

Do these folks have favorite visitors - friendly, pleasant to work with/for, sense or humor, particular interests, better or worse tippers? Sure? Not unusual in the tourism business. Even a friend of mine, an American tour guide who takes travelers around the US, Europe, Japan, South American has made mention about different nationalities, very similar to those workers in Africa.

Sorry though about those clients who didn't tip you in either of your positions. Yet tipped the "local" guide. Weird!

"I cannot imagine guests who were pleased with your services not tipping you."

You're from a culture where tipping is quite common, other people are not. I'm surprised that you don't know these differences.

All I can say is that people are funny. I would have been suspicious of your story (perhaps assuming that you didn't really provide a quality guiding experience with a good attitude), except that I have to admit that I also experienced biased tipping in a totally different context.

Years ago, while working at a resort in the Catskills, I received about half the tips of some of my co-workers. The guests were very overt about the reason why: I was simply in the wrong demographic. This is not an inference or an interpretation on my part, as they came right out and bluntly explained. "I love you dahlink, but I'm only giving you $xx because you are not yyy."

At the end of the season, I found out that some of the other staff actually invented different backgrounds for themselves, because a simple difference in background definitely boiled down to a difference in tips.

It's just the way people are.

I don't know what culture the non-tipping guests are from.

I tip solely on the quality of the guiding and how myuch trouble the guide is going to for his guests.

This sometimes means a large tip, a small tip or no tip at all.

Geoff.

GeoffG,

Hope you have not had too many no tips, which would indicate a poor experience.

atravelynn -- wikipedia has a good guide about tipping in different countries, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_by_region. You also should search the web for tipping in Asia.

I've had guides that grew up within a few miles of the camp, guides that grew up in a city environment in that country and guides who are of different nationalities. It would not occur to me to tip them differently because they are or are not local.

I tip according to how good an experience we have had (and, most especially, according to how much effort/skills they have put into that).

Nor have I experienced guides giving me any sob story about their holiday allowance, financial situation or anything else in an attempt to solicit sympathy/ larger tips.

Occasionally, where we have developed a strong rapport with a particular guide (usually where we've been lucky enough to have the guide/ vehicle to ourselves, despite not booking such) I've asked more about their family, backgrounds and so on.

One of our guides did indeed grow up very local to the reserve we were visiting. We learned that he was not only supporting his wife and children and his parents but also his sibling's family (can't remember whether it was brother/sister any longer) including their children. He was very proud and happy to be doing this and elated to be able to do so by sharing the local wildlife and environment with visitors. He was slowly buying the materials needed to build a proper house for the extended family. We saw the pile of bricks and roof tiles he'd purchased so far. And he was just a young man. It was certainly inspiring to see such resolve, responsibility from such a young guy and there was never a single moment when we felt he was trying to tap us for sympathy.

When we were leaving, the camp manager asked if we could drop him at the main road, about half an hour's drive out of the reserve, as he was going home on leave. Instead, we offered to drive him to his home which was only 20 minutes out of our way.

It was a pleasure meeting his family and seeing where he grew up. Our tip to him (which we gave him on leaving camp) was no more than it would have been had he been from a different demographic - it simply reflected the skills he had and how he'd used those skills, plus his personality and efforts, to really give us a great experience.

But what we did do was, on finishing the rest of our trip in SA, left some items including wildlife guide books, a cooler box, some long-life grocery items that we hadn't used (we'd self-catered quite a bit), some gloves and a few other bits. We parcelled them up and gave them tot the tour operator rep to get to him. Perhaps it's fair to say we may not have taken that action had we not had the understanding we did of his personal situation. Who knows?

Daltond,

I certainly agree with you to a large degree. Though I think your phrasing of feeling sorry for has thrown a number of people.

I know plenty of guides who have spoken to guests about the fact they do not get to see their families etc.To what extent this influences tipping I think is ambiguous.

In some cases, it is more off putting to hear tales of woe on your holiday. You get enough of those through spam mail...............

I do believe though, that there is some kind of sub-conscience difference when certain people tip. It does relate to lifestyle and families, though not quite in the way that you portrayed. Most people look at white guide and often associate them with a western lifestyle. They probably look at a black guide and think, he lives in mud hut near the reserve. I feel that the larger tips in some instances is the 'well being' factor derived from helping the local fella. Who stereotypically has large family etc etc.

I think people often see a white guide as someone on a bit of a jaunt. With all of South Africa's racial past, perhaps people perceive all white africans as in a position of comfort, so sub-conscienously give less.

For example, talk to a white guide, they have been to Europe etc. Talk to a local guide and they have been to jo'burg twice if you catch my drift.

Overall, people are trying to say thank you for a job well done, though in some cases, people give more, getting almost that feeling of goodness like a charitable feeling.

PS

Worst tippers ( Generally)

French
Germans

Best Tippers

Americans

I often find this is done to flaunt wealth rather than to reward. This is certainly not limited to Americans. Though I used them as an example as they generally reward the best, though are often brash too.

The brashness of some Americans and tendency to tip heavier may have been summed up by a Tanzanian guide I had. When I was asking about his take on the different nationalities he replied, "Americans are cowboys and big tippers."

I have also found a loose correlation between wealth--or at least flaunting of purported wealth--and the size of the tip. It is negative.

If you or a family member is dependent on tipping income, it also has an impact on the tipping decision. I have some unbelievable tipping (or lack thereof) tales from a non-safari environment.

Moving off of tipping for the moment, the difference in the perceptions of nationalities can be evident in other situations. When a lodge where I was supposed to stay was overbooked, I was taken to a 9 x 12 tent a few kilometers away, set up along a riverbank. The explanation was that Americans and Australians are routinely relegated to these canvas accommodations when there is an overbooking problem because they see it as an adventure.

On the other hand, the management would never consider ousting French guests from the lodge and sending them to the tents by the river. Even though it was my very first night on a safari, the stay in the 9 x 12 was highly memorable and indeed an enjoyable adventure, so I guess they had me figured out correctly.

Lynn,

I am sure that everyone's first safari is very memorable (I know mine was!), and on yours you were not only kissed by a Cheetah but were also relegated to an adventurous night in a distant tent by the river on your first night! Is it too much to hope that you might have written an old trip report about that first safari???

rickmck

RickMck,

Well, isn't that a nice request! I've never thought about the interesting and unusual start and then finish to Safari #1. I took copious notes on everything of that first trip in one of those hard cover journals because I wanted to preserve the memories of the once in lifetime experience. I've transfered some excerpts to Word here and there. You've given me incentive to finish the job!

Quote "GeoffG,

Hope you have not had too many no tips, which would indicate a poor experience."

Only once. That being said i do live in a country where tipping is only considered for service beyond what is expected.

Also, after building relationships with some guides I have provided Tee-shirts, trousers, boots etc for their children. Clothing does not need to be new. Clean used clothing is gratefully accepted.

Geoff.

Intersting that daltond has not replied to his post. I think his post is arrogant.

Scott

PS...As an American I provide the world(Africa expecially)close to a 20% tip everytime I get paid.

Lynn,

I, too, have a nearly full hard-cover journal of that first "trip of a lifetime". But I AM going back. And I'll be bringing another of those journals with me for the second trip of a lifetime... I hope there will be more to follow! Looking forward to seeing that first report of yours...

rick

So as I see it most people disagree with me but a few agree. So this proves that there is something out there. I think Shumbas post sums it up pretty well.
I am sure that I simply got some backs up so automatically there is resistance.

Some cultures are not into tipping, that is obvious. It does happen a lot I don't care what anyone says. I will even tell you right now that many local guides know this as well and I have a few friends who will gladly admit this to me in person (local guides). On a subconcious level the demographic makes a huge difference as has been said in some posts.

Scott are you typically thick or something? Oh yes, the world revolves around America, the time zones must be all the same. What a stupid comment to say that I have not replied to the post. You do not even have to say where you are from and I would have guessed. Sorry to all the other Americans out there as you guys have given me far more money then anyone else. I do not have to be diplomatic in life anymore because I am out of the industry, do you know what a free feeling that is. I love now going to America & Europe on holiday. I really do have my say these days. I can't really on Fodors because the thread would be deleted or something so that is why I was as 'nice' as I was.

I also did not want to turn this into a pink/grey thing if you know what I mean hence me using the term local which could really mean anything.

Another fact. I have had a guest ask me a bird. I gave the answer. At the exact same time a local guide gave a different answer. The guest automatically believed the local guide - why? I suppose it was because he had lived in the bush his whole life and I had grown up in the city, was it demographic. Even though this guide obviously did not know the difference between a lion & hyena track. He had grown up in a rural area with cattle, very different then a bushman running around hunting for food in the Kalahari!! Straight away I showed the guest my birdbook and guess what... I was right and the guest knew that this other guy had just been proven wrong and he knew himself!

fyi - local managers get tips!

Oh and Scott well done for "PS...As an American I provide the world(Africa expecially)close to a 20% tip everytime I get paid" - how do you do this hey? Does the money go into back pockets? Maybe you are helping with the new 'industrial colonisation' of Africa. I wish I were you, such a nice guy.

Daltond "So as I see it most people disagree with me but a few agree"


Daltond,I don't think that people agree or disagree with you,they are just telling you about their experiences,at list that is what i did in my answer,base on having contact with over 20 guides and trackers in the last 6 years.

I don't argue that what you say does not happen,it just didnt happen to me.



Scott,do you really believe you are saving the world ??

Paco.

Amazing response in such a short time. A more realistic topic than what people realise.

I too was in a position like daltond for many years. I am a very experienced field guide and specialist botanist who has worked his way around various camps and lodges in several countries (I consider myself a "local" in my home country) It pleases me that so many people have not felt sorry for their guide and tipped according to service and experience which is theoretically how it should be.

However I must agree with a lot of what daltond says as I have witnessed it first hand. Some countries are worse than others too.
I have listened to guides telling interesting facts about their lives but I have also heard the most horendous lies and "hints" to guests that they are hard done by and certainly trying to gain sympathy. Since many of these guides were colleagues and friends I knew their true situations. I have worked in camps where we were a team of 12 or so rangers and I also knew that there was no discrimination within the team e.g. we were all issued the same "kit" (uniforms, binoculars, field guides etc) yet some of the guides purposely wore their oldest most tattered uniform and left their binoculars in their rooms so that guests would feel sorry for them and give them another pair of binoculars when they left (these would of course then get sold) It got to the stage where the General Manager had to step in to stop this behaviour.

Another valid point daltond makes is the fact that guests always believe the guide who grew up in the bush as opposed to me who has a botany degree when it came to identifying a tree?

nyamera states "are you an expat living your dream in Africa and the “locals” are the citizens of the country?

Don't kid yourself nyamera, the expats (city boys as they have been offensively been called by tourists)have done huge amounts of work trying to improve the guiding skills of "locals" who grew up in the bush without the proper schooling they would have received in a city. Some of these guides are illiterate yet they are exceptional in their fields and most of them would not hesitate giving credit to the "city boy" who helped them achieve their goal. Yet the perception of the overseas world is that expats are just in it for fun? The fact that they are passionate conservationists doesn't even enter your thought process. If they had the choice do you really think they would be putting up with your irritating and repetitive questions and comments on the game drive? No, they would be in the conservation field which is where their passion really is but unfortunately they do not get this opportunity because they are not judged on merit and qualification anymore but instead on the colour of their skin.

One last thing before you all jump on the race issue, I am a non-white who has been fortunate enough to be given a good education. I still lead specialist botany excursions in my free time. The guiding industry has burnt me out just like daltond and I urge you to judge guides on their skills alone and I really hope that when you do get "Mr feel sorry for me" that this post would have helped you see his true agenda.

Hi Paco

You are right.
I do hope though that some others may come forward with more instances that have happened to them.

Wow burntout

Thanks for that one. It is something that happens a lot.

The binoculars thing. Do you know how many pairs of excellent binocs I have? I always carried a pair of Swarofski. I did not buy then from a shop or get them as a tip. I purchased then on pre-order from a local guide in.... I have done this on many occasions. I simply used to spred the word that I wanted a pair of Zeis,Swarofski, Lica etc. and usually within a few weeks I would be able to purchase a pair for a fraction of their true value from a local guide milking the tourists. In fact I think I should open up a second hand shop and get a name out there in the guiding industry and buy & sell 'used' binoculars, cameras etc. The sad thing is that the people that I purchased the binocs from probably still do their drives with their old worn boots, binocs with only one lens that works and old tattered bird book form 1995!

Hi Daltond

Very interesting topic that I am sure will get many people thinking
I think I could give some helpful insight as I am in the industry but also travel quite a bit around Africa, so can see it from all sides really.
I have had many situations so similar to yours, most insulting one having being asked a question by a guest, given my answer, and then heard them asking a local guide the self same question. He happened to give the same answer as myself and then I got the 'approving look'. I was so offended at the time, but looking back I pity the fool who was so ignorant of my skills and probably ignorant about the entire environment around him.
As for tipping, you hit the nail on the head, I need not say more.
Kavey - sorry to be blunt but the story you found inspiring was designed to attempt to take you for a ride - I have heard stories such as these, many many times.
I wish these guys could spend their time more constructively, rather than pleading poverty and trying to fund their brick house or whatever it is they are funding.
As a guest on a vacation surely the last thing you want to hear is how hard people work, how hard their lives are and so on, being on a vacation indicates that you have deserved some time off after working yourself? Brings me to the next point - each and every person has had a different upbringing with their own difficulties, being it financial or other. As Shumba stated many people perceive white locals as 'comfortable' etc. Would you as a successful person appreciate races from other parts of the world as seeing your life and success as having been handed to you on a silver platter, whether true or not?
I doubt it as no one ever knows unless they have experienced it themselves!

Emeraldblaze, I knew someone would try that line on me but actually, that wasn't the case. Firstly, the guide didn't volunteer any information about his family, we asked. Secondly, most of the detail came AFTER we gave him his tip and had left the camp (on the drive to the main road) so there was no incentive for him to ham it up in order to get a tip. The tip had already been finalised and given. Thirdly, he wasn't the one that asked us to give him a lift anywhere, that was the camp manager. We were happy to oblige and when we reached the drop-off point asked how far it was to his place. He told us and we offered to drop him nearer or directly there. This is why we met his family and saw his home and the materials he was collecting to build an extension.

Whilst I do appreciate that there are many conmen out there I think it's a sad world indeed when people stop giving the benefit of the doubt or paint every person with the same brush.

As for the black / white thing I see Daltond finally admitting was his real question (rather than local or non local) one of the highest tips we gave was to a white guide in Botswana who came from South Africa. The tip reflected his skills and the experience he gave us.

Kavey
Good for you if you were not taken for a ride, suspect that this is a rare occurrence.
As for it being a sad world, well sad but true, just being realistic. Read the tusker report and see what the world has come to.

Good comeback Daltond...am I thick or something. No need to apologize for me....and thanks for calling me a nice guy. You mention in your intial post that this may hit a nerve. I would be careful how you respond to peoples reactions to your post. By posting this in the first place is a clear indication that you wanted discussion on this topic. Seems to me that you have not totally left the industry. What is your 9 to 5 job?

Why did you become a guide? It burns me when I hear people complain about the jobs that they stepped into on their own will. I travel over 100 days a year, do I start posts in forums about that?

You asked "questions to guest" and now you are getting answers. Like it or not.

Scott

I am glad I am getting answers.

As for becoming a guide. I love the bush. I also have not complained about being a guide but about unfair discrimination in the industry that has cost me money. Many people on earth complain about discrimination but when I do it is a problem? Why don't you give me that 20% instead to pay me back for my losses, it's the right thing to do.

I would like to ask you a question now and please answer. After reading this thread, it is obvious that this discrimination happens. The only argument will be about how much it happens. I can say this because some of the postings have similar stories to me and where there is smoke there is fire. So I do not care if in your opinion it happens only 1% of the time or 99% of the time, do you not agree that if it does happen, is it wrong?

Daltond, that Q wasn't aimed at me, but I'll answer it. Absolutely, discrimination is wrong whether it happens 1% of the time or 99% of the time. Also, whilst I've not experienced the sob-story, tattered clothes, old binoculars, never see my family thing I can well believe it does go on. In any industry there are easy marks and I guess where there are easy marks there will be unscrupulous individuals who will take advantage.

It's up to an individual to decide whether to lower himself to the same level and play the same game or retain his dignity and self-respect but take the financial hit that results.

Daltond,
People from all over the world read the posts on Fodor’s and for most ”local” means something other than ”black”. You’ll be better understood if you use that word. I don’t recognise anything at all in what you describe, but then I haven’t been to South Africa. I’ve never even seen a white guide and I’ve never heard a “sob story” from a guide, so I can only theorize about what you’re telling. There’re some white guides in Kenya, I’ve discovered here on Fodor’s, but when I look at their websites they’re owners or co-owners of exclusive safari companies. Maybe some guests think you’re some kind of owner and you don’t tip restaurant owners? You also say that you’ve had some fantastic tips. Maybe that was because the rich guests thought you were someone like them and that to them a normal tip would be peanuts? I’d like to hear some of those so-called “local guides” tell their version.

Burntout,
In what countries have you been working? In Kenya, a foreigner can’t get a work permit for a job that could be done by a Kenyan. It seems strange that you as a very experienced specialist should be doing the same job as illiterate people. I could understand if you’d got a job as a teacher at some guiding school or something, but in Kenya there lots of highly trained citizens who can do that as well. I suppose, “it doesn’t even enter your thought process” that there are tourists (not those that live on Scott’s planet where people choose their jobs) that have to put up with irritating and repetitive questions (or much worse) in jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with their passions and therefore just can’t feel sorry for someone working very close to African wildlife having to put up with guest that are stupid, but at least in a good mood most of the time. Even if you got a job in conservation, unless you are fortunate enough to study wildlife in some remote place, there’s a big risk most of your job would be dealing with stupid and irritating people. There are many, many more highly skilled conservationists than there are jobs in conservation in Africa. What colour are you that prevents you from getting the kind of job you want?

BTW, I don’t like the concept of tipping at all. It’s a disgustingly arbitrary way of paying people for their work. But things being as they are I tip what’s expected (first asking different members of camp staff) so that I don’t interfere negatively on people’s planning of their economy and a little more because I want to be popular. Who the L am I to judge how people do their job?