Professionals selling Massai Mara - SAFETY issue

My guess is they know but they'd prefer not to bring up the unpleasant topic any more than necessary.

They may be addressing it within their own realm but are not publicizing it.

My guess is they don't know anything about it unless they lurk on this site.

Spassvogel,I totally agree with you.Safari Operators should be ashamed of not letting the world know of such unwanted behaviors.

atravelynn
I would consider it "ethics" when those who promote camps on this site also WARN if there is something terribly wrong with safety and security for guests at these very same camps. It might be life-saving.
Obviously money making is far more important than morales.

safarimama
Now if I were openly selling these venues I certainly would try my utmost to gather information - including executing a so called "fam trip" to confront certain people with statements made here - and if camps don't comply with "my" expectations in view to a honest and sincere collaboration I would definitely cancel these.

marshal
Right. THX for your support.
I think only if these camps feel pressure from their promoters they change their attitute regarding being responsible for guests safety and security.

Generally speaking - the missing outcry by fodorites who have been listening to some promoters here shows there is not only ethics lacking on seller's site. Might it be the case that the lack of ethics only come to mind with those who have suffered?

Sad...........

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

SV

I have definitely emailed my operator with concerns and copied the trip advisor posting by Tract0..I want to know if they knew and what are they prepared to do to insure safety amongst their clients.

I am deeply concerned and although still prepared to visit Kenya may change the area I am in.
I will post anything I receive from the tour ops for discussion.

SV, I applaud you for posting this. As we all know danger can lurk in our own back yards, but to travel so far at not inexpensive prices, I want to feel there is someone trying to protect me and my family. I cannot imagine the horror this family went through.

I would be doing my best to get it on "60 minutes" since they seem to enjoy their travels to the Mara.

There is bound to be someone on this forum with connections to media. I don't want to destroy the tourism in Kenya anymore than you, but does murder and rape need to take place before any officials get involved??

Why not try to reclaim security now and not wait until it is too late? Definitely would hurt rather than help Kenya to push it under a "carpeted rug" and turn away from any negative publicity. Its out there now; someone needs to get a hold of it!

Trac0, if you are reading these posts, please know that we appreciate your postings on Ta and Fodors and hope that your family is doing well. Having been attacked in Vic Falls (but managed to release from the grasp) I know the damage it does to one's soul. I continued on with a great trip, but was always looking behind me. The guide took full responsibilty for leaving me alone for a quick minute and the lodge owner immediately went to the police.

I can't think I'd ever go to a camp where the owner treated you as badly as they did.
Maybe this bit of publicity - and the other forums will cause these owners to rethink their policies and thoughts of safety.

Good luck to you and your famiy, and I know I will be keeping track of this along with SV.

FP

SV, what does your friend's TO/TA say about this (the friends that are going in Dec) and what does your TO say about this to you as I recall you are going to Naibor in April?

Also, in another thread you mentioned to me that you doubted very many TO's read this forum or others, if you are right then they would not know about this, if it was not made public (as Paul and Trac said it was NOT made public).

I have just emailed Daniel (my TO that we went with in May 2009) to see what he knows about this incident, I'll post back on this board once he gets back to me.

Lynda
Our friends are pending means unsure whether they should go.
We ourselves as well - but most probably shift to another destination.
My TO is trying to find out what was/is going on.

Regarding the doubt - I found out that there are some profs posting here as e.g. kiliwarriors, a wilderness agents from US (name?), I believe "sandi" is a TO as well as probably safarimama. No confirm about the latter two.

It's not about making it "public" by the victims. It's about investigation by the TO who post here and use fodors as kind of channeling promotion of camps and destinations.

BTW - If I fell victim to such a horrible incident I for sure would use any means at hand to make it public. There are loads of magazins and travel series on TV as well as consumer info series which will appreciate serious information.

Obviously particularly Americans are very much aware and interested whether their government warns in order to protect American citizens. Therefore I would have expected the same from American TO being honest and inform on incidents like the one which is posted here.
Obviously double standard as soon as the own pocket is involved.

SV

I've emailed Kennedy.

I've got a bit lost here...

Can someone advise what camps we are referring to or provide a link please?

thanks

Apologies, I have found the relevant postings.

Haven't been able to get into Fodor's these past few days. However, when I did read the earlier thread, sent email to a few contacts in Nairobi.

Here is the link to more details. S

http://www.fodors.com/community/africa-the-middle-east/kenya-travel-april-only-time-we-can-go-what-to-expect.cfm

Since my company was mentioned let me be VERY CLEAR.

We do NOT use FODORS as a communications medium. In other words, when I hear about things happening in Africa I do not run to FODORS to share the news. Nowadays I rarely visit FODORS anyway.

When safety becomes an issue we communicate to our clients direct and not on public forums. I assume most other companies do the same.

Thank you.

Thank you climbhighsleeplow for your honesty to state your companie's policy.
Despite you think others act the same it doesn't make it right.

If you do not use FODORS as communication medium how would you call your posts? What sense makes it to post at all?
Of course a forum - any forum - is meant to exchange vies and opinions and it's natural cause IS communication.

I visit a travel forum not only in order to give/receive advise on venues and destinations.
Which alone is fine.

But a forum becomes valuable IF one gets also information on safety and security or better the lack of them.

Openly communicated safety issues don't only serve the readers but also enhances the credibility of the promoters of destinations. IMHO

Sad that the professionals don't see that advantage.

SV

One more thing CHSL

I assume you got the info on the incident(s) here on fodors (as NONE of the camps communicates such incidents openly!) which made you request details from your collaboration partners in Kenya, right?
Wouldn't you consider it kind of "feedback" to those who gave you that info to inform on the details and/or further incidents?

SV

This was sent to me this morning by a TO in Nairobi who said KATO was "happy" with the way the incident was handled and sent me a copy of Naibor's Incident Report below..

I wanted to share this as I am deeply disturbed by the different accounts (i.e no one was hurt - help immediately arrived, etc.)
Understandably the camps would not want negative publicity,but for me, I will never willingly go somewhere where not JUST a burglary took place, but from Paul's postings, physical attacks on children of all beings!. That leads me to believe more injury could have resulted if for some reason a guest decided to defend themselves.

Just wanted to share what I have found out and what "SV", I think was looking for:


Incident at Naibor Camp:
At 23.35 on Wednesday 7th October, 4 – 6 individuals entered into Naibor camp in the heart of the Mara Reserve.

All of them went to the manager’s tent and fired 2 warning gun shots into the air before entering the manager’s tent. Jamie and Sophie, the managers were taken to the office and forced to unlock it for the thieves to take a laptop, camera, mobile phone and some petty cash. The manager’s radios were also stolen which made communication between all the tents difficult. (there are guest radios in every tent) The thieves then told Jamie and Sophie to lie still and not to move. Jamie waited a few moments before jumping in the car to drive to Intrepids camp where there is a permanent armed guard ranger station.

The thieves then came across 2 askaris who had come to see what was happening and fired 2 more warning shots into the air before breaking into tents number 3, 4 and 5 reprimanding the guests and stealing possessions. One couple had their passports stolen and the other two couples had money, phones and other possessions stolen. The exact details of what was taken is still to be confirmed. Only one guest saw the gun but they did all see the machetes the robbers were carrying. No guests were hurt.

There were six askaris on duty and one of the askaris went to Little Naibor to reassure those guests. Two askaris went to Rekero the camp next door to help. Rekero radioed the Intrepids Rangers who then met Jamie en route.
Three askaris came to the office to see what was happening which prompted the robbers to fire the second two warning shots into the air. These askaris then hid in the bush when the robbers fired the warning shots. They re-emerged as soon as the incident was over.

The management went to each tent to reassure guests and give them refreshments. Everybody went back to bed after a short while. One couple in tent 7 slept through the entire incident.

The whole incident took less than 20 minutes from the time they first arrived.

Anthony Cheffings, one of the owners of Naibor was informed of the incident at 00.15 and immediately called the Sector Warden at 00.20. The Sector Warden is based at Intrepids and an ambush was set up immediately and was in place by 00.45. The Senior Warden was then called.

Ranger force from Park HQ was in camp at 2.00am, to reinforce local area rangers. Police OCPD (Officer commanding police division) from Narok was here at 4am and local Tourism Police Unit here by 6am. TPU assisted with statements and police abstracts and all guests were processed and left on time for the scheduled departures.

Anthony Cheffings called Lewa security at 6.45 to organise bloodhounds to be ready to come down to the camp to track the robbers. A charter with Tropic Air collected the dogs and they were on the ground at Naibor at 9.45am.

There were 12 guests due to leave today who have left on normal services. 8 guests should have stayed on a private charter was organised to fly them out.

One couple decided to stay and the other couple have been moved to Shompole.

There is a group of three coming in today who have been informed about the situation and they are happy to continue with their plans as normal.

Thanks FP for getting this information to us. Kennedy had not heard this and he is a member of KATO.

Kennedy is extremely distraught and very saddened by this. He’s so sorry for what happened to this family. It's so painful. He apologizes for all of Kenya to everyone at Fodors and to Paul and Tracy and their 2 boys.

LindaS: I have been in contact with Daniel as we are planning a trip in April. His e-mail response to me was that he was contacted by a "client in North America" regarding the incident - I am assuming it may be you and he has assured me of our safety in the Mara. However, he never indicated that he knew anything prior to your making contact. I really find that hard to believe and am now reconsidering our trip.

LyndaS: sorry my post had your name spelled incorrectly.

Daniel emailed me back this morning, I read it when I was on the way out the door to a client's office, so have not had a chance to post what he said. That was me that contacted him. The message is on my computer at home (I'm still at the client's office) but from memory here's what I remember him saying:

He was horrified when he read Paul & Tracy's account - KATO had only sent out notification that 'a very small' camp within the conservancy had experienced a robbery in October. No name of the camp was mentioned, the word 'armed' was not mentioned, and no details were given. As he himself has never been to Nairbor, nor booked anyone into Naibor as of yet,(he has only recently started as his own company), he didn't have a contact there that he could contact in the camp, but he was going to ask around in the industry and see who else knows what about this.

In the meantime though, rest assured that he - as will all other concerned & reliable operators in Kenya I am sure - will take all steps necessary to make sure his clients are very safe and booked into safe and secure lodges/camps. Of course no one can guarentee that, but I am positive that he, along with most of the concerned & reliable operators will investigate the security of the camps they book to ensure the safety of their clients as much as possible.

Please, silviam, please don't cancel your trip to Kenya, it such a wonderful land full of such wonders, and wonderful people. You mentioned in your thread you had been all over the world, Kenya is really a country you should not miss, and I am sure that your nephew will enjoy it so much also. There is nothing quite like the feeling of watching the animals in their natural habitat. And the Mara is one of my favorite places, the animals are so diverse and plentiful, it is like what one person on a safari once said:
'it's like opening a new present everyday'.

Sylvia,
Really! I don't know where you are from or where you live, but how can you be assured of your safety anywhere? How can anybody? Carry your wits about you and be vigilant and hope for the best wherever you are. It takes all three, I believe. Don't do the obvious stupid things, like flash your money around in public, wear expensive jewelry or dangle expensive cameras around your neck in a busy marketplace!

I’m certainly NOT saying that Paul or Tracy or their boys did this or in any way provoked the attack. These things happen. Staying in a fenced-in lodge with armed guards will most likely be safer than a small open camp. However, I will continue to stay in small open camps.

It’s a fantastic experience to have ellies and lions right there outside your tent. On top of that I always ask for the last one, closest to nature (and the robbers!). Some will say that’s stupid, some say brave, I say awesome! I would definitely stay at Naibor, Entim or Rekero rather than at a big lodge. Kids are always safer at lodges in case they wonder out at night, like kids sometimes will do.

People get murdered and robbed in their homes all over the world every day. Here in the Greenwood neighborhood of Seattle, they just and finally caught an arsonist, who’s been setting fires on and off during the night for 4-5 months now. Talk about feeling uneasy at night!!! http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010287994_webarsons17m.html

I would say, your odds of being "abused" are about the same anywhere you go with obvious exceptions. There are areas in Seattle I wouldn't go, to lower my odds of getting attacked and robbed.

Heart attacks and cancer kill people too on very short notice! You can't guard against everything, but you can enjoy every day to the fullest as if it were your last! Why worry? The stress will kill you!!

“I’ve chosen not to be petty, and it keeps me in good form”, quote by Kennedy Muthoka.

I don't think I would advise to stay in a tented camp in the Mara despite hating the idea of sleeping in a concrete building as I consider tented camp as "real safari".

LyndaS
I really had the very same attitude (that was the reason Paul's wife "attacked" me because I was still very positive regarding Naibor or any other camp in the Mara).

By now I must admit I am the most insecure person when it comes to camps in The Massai Mara.

NO tour operator make sure the clients are SAFE! How shall they do that?

But certainly it would be much wiser to book with a good and reliable Kenyan outfitter who really cares and gives honest advise instead of booking with an American or European TA who simply doesn't care anymore as soon as the booking is sealed.

Also the Kenyan folks give their cellphone numbers for emergencies. I doubt an American TA will be reachable 24/7/365.

So IF one MUST go to the Massai Mara (in Samburu they had also one incident!) make sure you book with a good reliable domestic TO in Nairobi! That's my advise. These folks might be able to figure in advance and provide a feeling of safety. They also can help with formalities/police/embassy etc.

Since the prof here simply don't care I would think twice to whom I listen when advises are posted.

SV

Like Safarimama, over the years, I've stayed at many small camps everywhere in Kenya. Speaking of Entim Camp (the other camp that had a few incidents in the past year) right after they first opened (June 2008)... alone, the only guest and surrounded by their wonderful Masai guides and askaris.

This is not to say I wasn't horrified to read Paul's account of their attack at Naibor (down the road from Entim) and the subsequent account (FP's posting) and conflicting (maybe incomplete) details between the KATO report and that of those on whom this was perpetrated. Yet too often and anywhere, we can question how the authorities go about their evaluation of an incident. Many of our home country police departments often and sadly fall short on their investigations of rape, murder, burglary, kidnapping, etc.

It's important we all learn as much as possible, regardless where we're off to and make a decision based on our own comfort level. For me, unless war with bombs falling and metal flying past my ears broke out, I wouldn't decide not to visit a country.

Sylviam, An unfortunate incident should not spoil our love of travel. (my 2 cents). I will be more interested in the response of the camp owners/operators and their plans to prevent or mitigate future occurances than any other factor. Should this type of incident become a frequent occurance, then we should become alarmed. I also do not think that in the current economy that the Kenyan tourism industry or government will allow this behavior to continue and impact an industry that has already suffered.
I live in a large midwestern city in the US and almost everyday there are news reports of violent acts. I am not afraid to drive through these areas because I know that the response has been to increase police patrols to insure safety.
PaulTraveller, I send my best wishes to you and you family and I know it will be a while before you can feel safe enough to resume traveling.
My wife and I are going with Daniel in May and plan to enjoy ourselves and the beauty of this country.

From the various posts, doesn't sound like many of the in-country tour outfitters knew much about this incident over a tour operator in Europe, the US, Canada, OZ or elsewhere.

Terrible things can happen to people in the most perfect places as well the most dangerous.

Does NYC, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Rome, Sydney or other major destination list every incident that has ever happened in their city/locale that a prospective visitor will check to determine whether to visit or not? Doubt it.

What happened to Paul and his family and other guests at Naibor is terrible and horrifying, but is also a rarety. That's not to be callous, but such incidents are just that "rare" vs the number of bed nights visitors from all over the world have enjoyed with no issues whatsoever.

As someone a number of years posted "if a heard of wildebeest came marching past the NYC Public Library, it would make headlines. " It's rare and unlikely.

I am also still planning on my trip next fall. I am re-thinking the plans I had for perhaps staying in the area around Naibor.

I do hope Paul and his family get the answers they need and the owners of Naibor make statements that can address the different accounts we are reading.

I am not naive enough to pretend horrific acts do not occur every day; even here in my city I do not venture into certain areas day or night.

I think because the Mara is the place of so many longings and
fantastic memories that most of us civilians thought the most danger we would face is a lion in camp.
The assault on Paul and his family has opened my eyes signifcantly to what I need to do to ensure my family's safety on a trip - anywhere in the world.
I will definitely discuss it in detail with my tour ops to have a plan - a cell phone perhaps with numbers plugged in; or something to signal our need for help.

Perhaps in some way Paul's postings and the Naibor repsonse will give cause for everyone to make a plan...at last get us thinking we really aren't safe anywhere in this world anymore.

Sadly that is reality; but hopefully some good might come out of this very public discussion

FP.

First of all, very sorry to hear about the incident. I really feel terrible for all the guests that had to endure the trauma of this incident.

Is there anything that the Parks authorities along with camps and lodges are doing to get down to the bottom of this? This is a terrible incident, where people were physically beaten and bruised. I'm not even talking of the monetary loss of material things ...... those things are replaceable.

I am very sorry, but, my opinion is that this in no way can be compared with what happens in major cities across the world. This is COMPLETELY different.

I do agree, that this is not good for the Mara system and negative publicity further impacts the wildlife in the area. Yet, my only question is ......... what is the responsibility of the parks authorities, the Government, the camps and lodges in the Mara to improve safety measures?????

It's not upto me or this forum to tell the authorities what is needed to improve safety measures. I think only they need to come up with a solution as they are the ones with all the facts...........

As to agents and operators, I'm sure they provide all information to their own clients (depending on the information that they themselves know).

Personally, I love the Mara as it's the first place I went to on safari and hope to visit at some point in the future.

Hari,
As always ... you're the king. Thanks for this post, most timely. I couldn't agree more.

I'll check back in about 3 weeks. Off to Namibia (tomorrow) to celebrate my husband's 60th birthday! He does love Afreeeekah!

SV

Again. Please do not assume Fodor's is the place to come for up-to-date accurate info about Africa. It is not. Fodors is simply a place where a very tiny community of people talk about Africa and their experiences. To really learn about Africa one has to talk to experts, well-connected contacts or people who live here.

Myself and others are not obligated to share any info here especially when it is very slow from Africa where I find myself many months each year. Even now this is an hour-long ordeal to post hear due to slow internet where I am at this time.

It is funny, but when overseas tour operators and local operators (THOSE WHO ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING AND EITHER LIVE LOCALLY OR TRAVEL TO AFRICA SEVERAL TIMES A YEAR) do choose post here they receive rather harse critism from the regulars here on Fodors - especially you, SV!

Yet now you want them to share everything they know and blame them for not posting! Local operators who post here receive specially treatment and are are quickly dismissed as touts and worse! SV, unfortunately you cannot have things both ways.

FYI I received two phone calls from the Masai Mara the morning after the Naibor robbery. A few days later after verifying some details, I told clients who were to stay in the area some weeks later that two robberies took place recently and assured them about their safety, etc. They did not cancel and did have a great time although I am waiting to hear from them. I believe these clients have posted on Fodors in the past and they can surely verify my claim.

CHSL

THX for your statement.

Instead of just blaming me grossly do me a favour and tell me where I criticised TO for posting their objective opinions?

The opposite is the case!

When e.g. SHOMPOLE was heavily blamed for its lack of service and poor management I was one of those who appreciated these advise.

Blaming "generally" for being straight doesn't matter who or what is concerned is quite unprofessional as well.

I am an independent traveller and also poster here on that forum. I have no reason to speak anybodies mouth in order to please. Criticism therefore is only aimed at the topic in question, doesn't matter who is involved. I don't have buddies here and therefore I don't have to please them.

I am not going to change that.

SV

I have reposted the information below so that I could remove an erroneous statement in my previous post regarding the Naibor Camp owners affiliation with KATO. This was a genuine error on my part. However as I believe the remainder of the info in the prior posting is accurate I have reposted again.

With respect to the report by KATO as posted by flowerpower on Nov 17, 09 at 5:04pm above, some of it is accurate, and some is an outright lie.

Main corrections
• Guest tents 3, 4,5 & 6 were robbed. My wife and I were in tent 4 and our children in tent 5, an English couple in tent 3 and another English couple in tent 6.
• The guests in tent 3 was beaten, we know that because we heard the wife pleading with the robbers to stop. I also saw the husband’s bruises the next morning.
• I was roughed up and struck with the machete (flat side leaving nasty purple bruises)
• Both my boys were beaten, initially to wake them up and again to hand over their valuables (both are 15 years old!!!)
• Andy, an English (or white Kenyan) guide who came to our tent after the first gunshots and was in our tent while it was being robbed was struck on the leg and had a bandage on his wound the next morning.
• The manager Jamie was bleeding on the hand from being struck with the sharp edge of the machete.
• I don’t think the people in tent 6 were beaten though.
• All the Masai guards disappeared after the first gunshot. The manager Jamie commented that some were found hiding in warthog holes etc
• Yes, Management reassured us after the event, but only after the rangers found us hiding along the river bank. We were not game enough to show ourselves even though someone was calling my name.
• Everyone filled in a report including a list of stolen property. They know exactly what was stolen from each guest.

Now if that is KATOs version of “no guests were hurt” then being hurt must mean something different in Kenyan.

If the version in flowerpowers post is actually KATOs official response it is some what disappointing as it is obviously written to play down this incident.. Hmmmmmmmmmm

By the way, we never received a copy of our report lodged with the police despite chasing for several weeks. Eventually we were given a 3 line report filled in by someone else, now I know why, its easier to play the incident down if there is “no official report”.

LyndaS: We are still planning our trip to Kenya through Daniel. My reply to you was simply that he did not know about the incident prior to you contacting him.

Old_Dude: Nothing spoils my love of travel. Anyone can be injured or robbed in any city in any country especially if they are not vigilant and aware of their surroundings. We never carry anything we are afraid to lose and most of the time look like locals. I think the details of this incident and the violence against children is what upsets most of us. We are bringing our 14 year old nephew. It is one thing for us to get caught up in something, but another for a child who relies on the adults present to be protectors.

We are still looking forward to our trip to Kenya and will still go to the Mara. Unfortunately we now look at tented camps a bit differently.

Sylviam, I'm so glad to hear that you guys are still going! I just love East Africa so much that I really would like everyone to experience it!

I do hope you will post when you get back to & tell us what you thought of Kenya and if your nephew enjoyed it.