My advice would be to do either East Africa or Southern Africa, but not try to do both---I think that would be too tiring. Besides, if you end up like most of us here, who suffer from mal d'Afrique to one degree or another, you'll be planning your next trip in no time. I would think that if you combined Sabi Sand with Botswana (with a stop in Vic Falls if you haven't already done that) you'll meet many of your goals (lions, leopards, giraffes, elephants, perhaps wild dogs) and enjoy two different ecosystems.

I've stayed at both lodges and luxury tents. Among my favorite lodges are Sandibe (Botswana), which has African-style chalets and Londolozi (Sabi Sand, great for leopards); tent-wise, my favorite was Grumeti (western Serengeti)---you just feel like you're in Africa, what with all-day-long grunts, groans and bellows coming from the inhabitants of the adjoining hippo pool.

As to how long is too long, I suggest that you look back over your past travels and judge from those experiences. If after two weeks or so you were thinking about home, I'd figure the same would happen on safari.

Good luck and enjoy your planning.

East Africa and Southern Africa are considered by most travelers as two separated safari destinations. They are far apart distance-wise but there is a little bit of advantage from a time and airline cost standpoint combining the two destinations. Unless you're retired, for most people it is too much time away from work to properly visit both destinations in one trip.

Rwanda is combinable with East Africa and/or Southern Africa. I have very little faith in the reliability of Air Rwanda Express which is the only way of getting from Rwanda directly to South Africa. Kenya Airways is pretty reliable and, for this reason alone, we often recommend combining Rwanda with East Africa instead of with Southern Africa. As the economy improves, our hopes are that South African Airways will start offering service to Kigali! For now, if you go to Rwanda I recommend you fly Kenya Airways to/from South Africa via Nairobi. This is more inconvenient but much more reliable.

I'll comment on Rwanda first. It is typically a 5 to 6 day destination depending on what you wish to accomplish. And, keep in mind there are many things to do in Rwanda other than gorilla trekking. But, it seems to me your desire is to have a big five safari and that is going to be had best in Botswana, Tanzania, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, or Kenya. A typical Rwanda itinerary has you arriving in Kigalli on day one and over-nighting. The next day you will leave by road to the Virunga Mountains. You will spend one night near the national park and start your first gorilla trek on day three. Most people do a second gorilla trek on day four and some people do more beyond that. ATravelynn, (from Fodors) did six tracks on one trip I believe! Most people drive back to Kigalli on day four and depart on day five.

The peak season for game viewing in Botswana is really June to October. It can stretch into November, but the game viewing changes significantly when the rains start. The migrations in East Africa are on the southern part of the Serengeti December through March, they moved north from April through July, and they are on the Masai Mara from August through October. In October and November, the migrations are on the move back south. These are gross generalizations based on historical movements. Everything depends on the rain and the grasses!

So, if you're trying to combine the peak season for the migrations with the peak season for Botswana you should consider Kenya in August and September combined with Botswana or the Western Corridor of Tanzania in June combined with Botswana. This last option (June) is a value option because the rates will typically be less in East Africa in June and with many operators they are less in Botswana in June. For the coming year, Wilderness Safaris goes to peak season rates on June 15 and most other operators in Botswana go to peak season on July 1.

The most difficult animal to see in Botswana on most people's list is the rhino followed by the cheetah. At last count, there were only 54 white rhino in the entire country of Botswana in the wild. They were poached to extinction in the 90s and only reintroduced in the central Okavango in the northwest portion of the Moremi game reserve about five years ago. There are three black rhino in the wild in Botswana because the two just had a baby. If you don't go to East Africa, I do recommend you visit the Sabi Sands or Phinda prior to Botswana just to be sure you see all the big five. The Sabi Sands has so many lions and leopards that there aren't that many cheetah which is why I sometimes recommend Phinda. In my opinion, Phinda has the best cheetah population in southern Africa. But, Phinda is the least authentic and “wild” safari experience of the ones I've mentioned. The Phinda reserve is small, completely fenced, and it was a sugar farm until about 18 years ago.

So, assuming your travel dates are as flexible as you say, and assuming you combine Rwanda, East Africa, and Botswana then I recommend you travel in August or September. Leave the United States, and fly to Nairobi via Europe. Spend one night in Nairobi and the next morning flight to the Masai Mara for four days amongst the migrations! After this safari, depart for Nairobi and depending on flight schedules you can fly to Kigali or spend one more night in Nairobi. Conduct a five-day gorilla trek and then fly all the way to South Africa via Nairobi on Kenya Airways. If you do want to go to the Sabi Sands or Phinda I recommend a three or four days safari in both these reserves and they are easily accessible from Johannesburg. I do agree that Londolozi has a great leopard population. But, the same river that flows through Londolozi through MalaMala next. Upstream from Londolozi is Singita. The valley of the Sand River is an abundant leopard habitat and lion habitat. I've also seen leopard on every visit to Lion Sands which is on the Sabi River on the southern part of the Sabi Sands.

Unless you use an expensive and possibly unreliable charter flight or miss your morning game drive and use a commercial flight from Nelspruit to Living tone, it is not possible to get from the Sabi Sands to Botswana or Victoria Falls in one day. Of course, this assumes you are not chartering a private airplane. So, after the Sabi Sands safari you can spend one night in Johannesburg and then continue on the next morning the Botswana.

Traveling in August or September I recommend you visit two major ecosystems in Botswana. The Chobe, Linyati, and Kwando are three areas with the same game viewing phenomena in July through October. The rains in Botswana typically end in March and as the seasonal water sources dry up the elephants and antelope all migrate towards the Chobe, Linyati, Selinda, and Kwando River systems. By July, there are massive herds of elephants and many other animals in these reserves. The Linyati Wildlife Reserve has some of the largest elephant concentrations on earth for those three months (same thing for Chobe and Kwando). But, Chobe is a National Park and it can be very crowded especially in the Northeast. So, I recommend you go to a private concession like the Linyati or Kwando. I prefer the Linyati and the four Wilderness Safaris camps on the property. You simply choose one for a three-day visit. I like the classic camps of Duma Tau and Savuti. Many people like Selinda and Kings Pool is an excellent premier camp but, based on your statement, may not be to your liking.

I would also spend four nights to in the Okavango Delta or Moremi game reserve. There are many lodges to choose from. My personal favorites are the Wilderness Safari lodges. For classic camps I recommend two nights at Chitabe Camp and two nights at either Kwetsani or Little Vumbura.

If you have more time, there are many ways to improve this itinerary. You could visit a second destination in Kenya or one of the new national parks in Rwanda. You could add more time in South Africa or add time in Victoria Falls. You could skip Kenya and Rwanda altogether and do a comprehensive visit to Zimbabwe and Botswana. There is a very good trip report on this forum about two weeks ago from this exact same experience.

There are many excellent safari operators based in the United States that book these types of trips. All of them are “brokers” or consultants. Like my company, they will have contracted rates with most of the safari lodges and hotels in the East and Southern Africa and we can also piece lodges together with charter flights and commercial flights and the necessary hotels in the various cities you visit along the way. The biggest difference you'll experience with different operators is service, knowledge, and to a lesser extent price. The major safari outfitters in the US typically purchase safari lodge accommodations and hotels at discounts off the website published price. This price difference creates a margin or commission from which we earn our living. The Africa Adventure Company is based in Fort Lauderdale Florida. I know the owners Mark and Allison Nolting and they are very reputable. As a competitor, I can highly recommend them.

I also recommend you look into Premier Tours. I say this because you mentioned the Fodors travel books. The South Africa book is written by Julian Harrison. He is the owner of Premier Tours in Philadelphia which is another tour operator for Southern Africa. Julian is golfing in South Africa this week so you will have to wait a week if you want to speak with him personally. On the boutique side, I would recommend Discover Africa in Cleveland or possibly Fish Eagle safaris in Texas.

This gives you some choices. I personally love Wilderness Safaris and for my budget minded clients Desert & Delta offers good value. There are people on this forum that have lots of experience with other operators and I'm sure they will chime in shortly.

Like my company, some of the larger operators in the US will also have airline contracts with South African Airways, Delta/KLM/Air France and also Kenya Airways. So, you can get the full service tour operation from these types of companies.

Let me know where you're from and I can possibly recommend a safari expert that you can drive to and actually meet face-to-face. It is a daunting task to try to find and plan a Safari on the Internet. If you go to Google and type “safari: you will have 106 million choices (as of this morning)!

Lastly, it is not weird or odd to simply call some operators and start asking a few questions. I had a lady set up an interview with me on the phone a few months ago. She interviewed me on Africa for about an hour and told me she would get back to me in two weeks after she interviewed two other operators. I did not find this weird or offensive at all! By this method, you can see who really “knows their stuff” and who can come up with a plan to route you around in a sensible manner that skips needless nights in Nairobi and Johannesburg, long layovers, or costly logistical errors.

Good luck planning and let me know if you have any more questions.

Craig Beal

My oh my how very exciting!

“one big trip, or expect to break it up into 2 or more?”
Using the analogy of putting all your eggs in one basket, I’d do 2+ trips IF you can afford the airfare. If for some reason you have a problem on Trip #1, you still have some things to look forward to on the next trips. You may want to repeat some of Trip #1 too, or pursue a slightly different strategy that you could not have anticipated without the experience of a safari under your belt. But IF the fixed cost of the flight is too much, then don’t waste your $ on the airplane.

“How long is too long when you are not used to being on safari?”
I like sdb2’s comment: I suggest that you look back over your past travels and judge from those experiences.
A safari such as you are requesting is not grueling or difficult (except for the gorilla tracking) and probably more relaxing than many group travel itineraries that move around a lot.

“elephants, lions, babies, leopards, cheetas, giraffes, etc. and beautiful scenery.”

Elephants
Chobe in Botswana is known for them, especially coming down to the river where you can watch from a boat. But Chobe is the most crowded of the Botswana parks. Botwana’s Savuti and Linyanti are good too and there are hides at some of the camps to watch them. Kings Pool has a nice hide and Savuti used to have a wood pile hide and maybe they still do. Kenya’s famous Maasai Mara is always good for eles and everything, but has more people than some of the other places. Tarangire in Tanzania is known for elephants and Amboseli & Tsavo in Kenya is known for them, with Tsavo having fewer people.

Lions
The Maasai Mara has lots. They are not that hard to find other places, such as the delta or Linyanti areas in Botswana. They're in the Serengeti. A special location for lions is Duba Plains where the lions and buffalo herds interact. The documentary "Relentless Enemies" was made there. The camp at Duba Plains is one of my favorite.

Babies
Tell your guide you are interested in babies.

Leopards
The best spots are the Sabi Sands, which you did not mention as a desired destination, and Moremi in Botswana. I saw 8 leopards in 8 days with just a couple photo ops at Chitabe in Moremi. The famous and expensive Mombo is well known for leopards, but I think not quite as much anymore. Although they can be found draped in the Acacia trees in Central Serengeti, I would not count on East Africa to produce a leopard and consider any sightings there good luck.

Cheetah
The Serengeti in Tanzania or Maasai Mara in Kenya have good sightings. While they can be seen in both the delta and more northern Linyanti regions of Botswana, you never know. You can see Safari Craig’s comments on South Africa's Phinda, which would be a good option for cheetah, even though you did not mention South Africa. I loved the 55,000 acre Phinda with its 7 distinct habitats and its philosophy of returning the land and wildlife to its former state. Phinda means return. And if you want gorgeous camps, Phinda Forest Lodge is glass cottages in the unique sand forest, which won awards for the ecological design and beauty, plus there are 3 other places to stay at Phinda, with 2 of them even more exclusive and having fewer people than Forest Lodge.

Etc.
It’s everywhere and may turn out to be the highlight of your trip. The people, culture, birds, animals you never knew existed until you got there will captivate you.

Beautiful scenery—can’t be avoided.

" flying to avoid too many long days on the road." Flying is by far the most common way to get around in Botswana, but you can arrange it throughout East Africa too on scheduled flights.

“great reputations,”
You mentioned The Africa Adventure Company and Botswana. They are very sound for all of Africa and I’ve used them for every country you mentioned and others you did not. If you did decide on a cross continent trip, they would be a good choice since they operate in all the countries typically visited. There has never been a problem on any trip and when problems did arise that were outside their control (just because it is Africa) they fixed everything up. They'll do your internatinal air too, if you want.

“ camps that are gorgeous” Anything that AAC or a similar company sells will be. And they'll be in scenic locations with good wildlife.

“like to avoid being in the middle of major tourism.” More Botswana, less East Africa. But you can always avoid the biggest crowds if you have a private vehicle, which is common in East Africa, and you ask your guide to steer clear of groups and if you pick smaller, more remote locations.

I’d agree with Safari Craig's Rwanda itinerary suggestions and the timing of the trip, especially if you combine East and Southern Africa.

For more specifics, I'd do the gorillas first (or close to first) because you may do some walking/training for those hikes and you don't want to sit around in a vehicle for a couple of weeks and lose your fitness. Also if you take old boots that you will discard, you can get rid of them early. The Aug-Sept timeframe is great for gorillas. Nicest places are Sabinyo Silverback Lodge and Virunga Lodge. But there are others that will save you hundreds and offer adequate comfort. Kinigi Guesthouse had excellent birdwatching, hot running water in your own private bath, and a nice restaurant for very little money, though it was quite basic. Up from that is Gorilla's Nest and I've heard good things about Gorilla Mountain View Lodge.

In East Africa, I'd definitely go to Kenya's Maasai Mara, even with the possibility of more people. There are many nice places to stay. Maybe Little Governor's, which also owns Sabinyo Silverback Lodge--deal there? Serian, Rekero, both exclusive tented camps.

If you include Tanzania, I'd go to Ngorongoro Crater, a UNESCO World Heritage site that is tops in the scenic beauty catergory, plus the animals you mentioned. I like Sopa Lodge there for its own access road. The fanciest place at the crater and one of the fanciest places in the whole world is Crater Lodge. It is run by AndBeyond, the same people that have Phinda, so combining the 2 may get you a deal. You could also include the N. Serengeti in one of the luxury mobile tents. AndBeyond has one called SUC (can you believe it?), Serengeti Under Canvas, and so do several other operators. Top notch. Maybe Tarangire too, which is at its best in Aug Sept. Lots of places to stay in Tarangire. The order would probably be Tarangire, Crater, Serengeti. If you did TZ, it would likely be placed before Kenya for the best migration viewing.

If you went to Botswana, I'd do a delta camp (check Wilderness Safaris website, or there are many others, Sandibe mentioned above is AndBeyond) and a Linyanti camp at least and stay for a minimum of 3 nights at each. Maybe tack on Chobe for the elephants and wildlife on the afternoon-sunset cruise.

You didn't mention Vic Falls, but you could end with it or hit the falls prior to Botswana.

And if you went to S. Africa (maybe Phinda or back to Sabi Sands) too, I'd do that prior to Botswana. I think that order was suggested earlier as well.

6 weeks later you're back home!

I have read the two replies from my fellow friends above and they are very informative.Today I don't have a lot of time to respond your query but think I can help a bit.According to your age,I think you should do Tanzania or Kenya Safari or even both.Tanzania National Parks are not fur from each other and therefore you don't do long drives.On the other part,Kenya is the best country to me to see the big game more so the Big Five-Leopards,Lions,Buffalos,Rhinos and Elephants.If you want to see the migration,you should planning to visit Kenya starting the month of July next year (2010).The wildebeest together with zebras migrate from Serengeti in Tanzania to Masai Mara in Kenya.You can read about how they travel on this site,home page africa veterans,which is the only company I have used for the number of times I have visited Africa,whether in Kenya,Tanzania and even South Africa.They have many referrals on this site,so may be you can check them out.happy planning and remember to let us know your experiences when out of the safari.

You guys are all fantastic! Keep it coming because I will check into all of it! We are actually located in Sydney, so will fly from here. I find that if I go to travel agents locally, they have limited brochures/options so I am looking all over for the best products for us. We have done some, how shall I say, very active traveling in recent times. We recently did 7+ weeks Egypt-Israel-Turkey, with very, very early starts, and long, hot days. It was so much fun and so exciting that feeling tired wasn't even an issue. I was ready to keep going when it all ended! I so appreciate all the suggestions on itineraries and camps, and the details on Rwanda and the gorillas and keeping fitness was wonderful! So much to think about, so much to learn! Talk later! Thanks again!

If you did 7 weeks in Egypt, Israel, and Turkey with early starts, long hot days, and no tiredness, a cross continent trip in Africa will not be too hard for you.

My winking smiley with the 6 weeks comment may not be so winking after all, it may be just about right!

I'm not pushing AAC, but they do have some kind of sister company in Australia, Down Under is the name I believe, that offers Australia trips primarily for people not from Australia. I mention it in case you wanted some kind of more local connection, at least initially, if you chose The Afica Adventure Company.

You're right about local travel agents not being equipped for an Africa trip of this magnitude. There are several Australia posters who may be able to offer advice on their agents.

All great comments. We traveled recently (end of July) to Botswana and Zimbabwe, our first trip. It was spectacular in every way. It seemed to be a truly authentic safari as we were in Mana Pools and Moremi. I cannot speak to comments about East Africa, But I plan to go there some day as well!!!! I can only tell you that from a crowd standpoint, wildlife viewing etc. Botswana and Zimbabawe would be tough to beat. It was as if we were all alone. We used African Adventure Company as well and they were awesome. Call Mark Nolting and he will really help you sort through things. No, I am not on their payroll, but seriously they did an outstanding job of working with us and matching our desires etc.

sorry, I can't be of help, I too am planning a trip to Africa. The information on this thread is wonderful, I'm sure I'll reread these posts a few times when planning my upcoming trip.

We've been to Tanzania, South Africa (twice), Botswana (twice), Zimbabwe and Zambia (just briefly). We just recently used African Adventure Company and echo the great feedback you've heard above. Our first four trips we planned ourselves, but working with AAC was a treat and made things much easier. Our trip went off without a hitch. Combining any combination of South Africa, Botswana, Zimbabwe and Zambia would work without too much time loss travel, but I'd save East Africa for a separate trip. If possible stay in the private reserves since you have more flexibility than in the national parks (night drives, off-roading, etc.). For example, in the Serengeti (which we loved) if you see a cheetah on a termite mound, you are left looking at it through your binoculars and can't go off-road to get a closer look. On the other hand, the huge herds and Maasai people in the Serengeti make it a very special place that I wouldn't want to miss. I'd concentrate on places where you'll encounter fewer vehicles (i.e. if you go to Kenya, be selective).

For a first trip I'd recommend some time in the Sabi Sands area of South Africa. The wildlife here is so amazing (and somewhat consistent) that your chances of seeing what's on your list is probably higher than at any other place (with the exception of cheetah which is somewhat spotty there). You can easily combine this with Botswana and Victoria Falls, if you're interested in that. One thing we've learned over time is (at least for us) spending at least 3 nights, but preferably 4 at a property gives you a chance to really get to know your guide and staff and settle into a property and not spend so much time in transit.

After you've narrowed down your choices, get good recommendations on guides at the different properties. We've found that requesting the best guides provides the best experiences. In fact the only two times we've had less that exceptional (but still great) experiences has been because we didn't feel good about our guide (in one case the guide just seemed to be going through the motions and on another the guide was very inexperienced and didn't get along with his tracker very well). A great guide gives you the best opportunity to see what you want and will provide you with a good time, even when the animals aren't cooperative!

Lastly, don't rule out lodges altogether. We have enjoyed both lodges and tented camps. For example, Sandibe, in Botswana, is a "lodge" but feels just as remote and "out there" as any tented camp we've stayed in. If you're open minded about this, you'll have more choices.

We've enjoyed Wilderness camps and have stayed in 10 different &Beyond properties plus a few private properties. We've been very pleased with all the places we've stayed and have had amazing experiences everywhere.

Good luck with your planning!

Debbie

I hope that I haven't seemed too rude, since you all have posted such amazing ideas and I never got back to you. But I sort of have to wait until I can look at all this now with my husband so we can formulate our ideas beyond this early stage together. But I've been paying close attention to all the postings on these countries and will jump back in once we are further along in our planning. This month should see more action. But you are all so generous to share your ideas and experiences with us newbies. I hope I will be able to contribute to this forum after our trip!

I am looking at a few companies, but I just can't tell if you are booking the lodges/camps on your own, transport on your own, or are using a company to plan it all for you?

I'm excited for you just reading everyone's suggestions!

Use a reputable travel agent who specializes in Africa...tell them what you want and then sit back and let them make all the arrangements for you. They will take care of all the lodging, transportation etc. You just sit back and savor the anticipation!
Of course there are some people who like to make all the arrangements and handle every detail on their own, but I'm not one of them.

tinydancer,

it is very nice of you to follow up. many people post a question and receive detailed answers and they are never heard from again!

if you do want to work with an agent or local tour operator, i would be happy to refer you to one of my "competitors" that has an office close to your home. that way, you could even sit face to face and make your plans. let me know where you live if you are interested. i know one or two good safari consultants in most major US cities.

happy new year and i hope this month sees you firming up your safari plans!

craig beal

Happy New Year Tinydancer and have fun planning your trip.

I'm in Sydney, and the local (Australian) companies I have found are

www.emcompassafrica.com.au
http://www.africasafarico.com.au
www.africantravel.com.au
http://www.nfs.travel

I don't have a direct contact here in Sydney.

I've also made initial contacts with &Beyond and The African Adventure Co. both of which are not located here.

I'm beginning to see that many companies use many of the same lodges/camps, so I need to narrow that down to maybe only 2-3 companies to make further enquires with. I don't like asking too many people to invest too much time if I can narrow it down. My feeling is that having one company make all the arrangements may be best rather than me booking everyone directly, which I gather is much more complicated once you get into transferring between camps and between countries.

We're not looking for a budget company, nor are we looking for an ultra luxury trip. I want to mix tented camps and lodges (which make the most sense in the specific location), and be guaranteed of good vehicles and good guides. We're not looking at group tours.

And Happy New Year to all of you too!

"I'm beginning to see that many companies use many of the same lodges/camps, so I need to narrow that down to maybe only 2-3 companies to make further enquires with."

You are exactly right!

Hello tinydancer,

I've been watching this thread with great interest, and you are right. Many companies use many of the same lodges/camps.

That's because those companies (mega operators) spend huge amounts on advertising and commissions and entertainment for the travel agents you'll be dealing with.

There are hundreds of good lodges in South Africa and surrounds who never get a mention from travel agents or the travel forums, because they are realistically priced and spend more money producing good quality than paying their food chain. The same names keep cropping up everywhere, on every forum (and all of them mentioned in the above posts - how strange!)

Look around and keep an open mind. Good luck!

BK0 - I'm sure you are right, there are many more good lodges in SA than get mentioned hear. If I were local SA resident, I could easily try many different lodges and the ones that were just so-so would be no big deal. Very little lost. However, when I have to fly for 22 hours to get somewhere I want to be as sure as I can about my destination. How am I to know??

Happy New Year - Tom

Hi Tom,

I agree that's it's extremely difficult to tell from afar. And I don't discount the wonderful services provided by Travel Agents around the world. They are a crucial link in the supply chain.

I also agree that as a South Africa resident, I can visit many lodges across the spectrum, and if I'm a bit disappointed with one or two, there's little lost. When you are traveling for 22 hours at huge expense, it's very important that you are assured of good quality at your destination (and on your way there and back).

That's one of the huge values of forums like these. You can ask for detailed information and get responses from local and overseas travelers and experts in the field and inside the industry.

But you also need to filter the information. At the end of the day, it's up to personal choices. And the more balanced information you have, the more appropriate those choices can be for you.

Here's my two cents. Since you can travel for a long period of time (7 weeks being a very long period of time in my book) I would try to do it all. One week Rwanda/travel, two weeks East Africa and three - four weeks Southern Africa. We have gotten drivers for some of our transportation, but flying is the only way to get from place to place for the most part. Africa is big but you can do a lot in 5 - 7 weeks. I would start in Rwanda, as atravellyn suggested, go to ngorogoro, Serengeti-Mara, Tsavo (fewer people), then Cape Town for a few days to get back into civilization. Then Sabi Sands near Kruger, Phinda, Botswana - Duba Plains and Mombo are special - Victoria Falls, and maybe a few days in Mana Pools or Hwange in Zimbabwe. I prefer tents, but the tents are ridiculously luxurious for the most part. It's not camping by any means. Wilderness Safaris (I personally like them, but other Fodorites have a different opinion) does some interesting small group excursions in Bots, Namibia and Zambia where it is more rustic than their permanent camps.
I have no idea of the best times for the great migration, but Southern Africa is at its best from June - Sept, except being from Australia the cold might get to you at that time (my niece married an Aussie and he HATES the winters here in NY and never minds the heat even on our most miserable summer days). It does get surprisingly cold in the bush in the winter. You could go in your spring and see tons of babies, but the weather is hotter and wetter and the grass is higher, making the animals harder to find as they don't have as much trouble finding water.
Although I've never traveled with &Beyond, they get great feedback here. They have camps in all the areas you are interested in except Rwanda, and you could go entirely with them. I think they could help you with Rwanda.
My mom did three weeks Bots/S Africa when she was 77. It was not too much for her. You'll be fine - just stay in places for at least three days at a time. Less than that is stressful. Happy planning. It's fun!!

Thank you christabir, Bushkid0, and everyone else. All the comments have been just wonderful. I especially was kind of stuck in wondering if we can do much of what we want to on one trip, so getting your feedback on that is really supporting our feelings about doing it together in one go. Winter is Southern Africa is also winter here, and believe it or not, it does get pretty cold, even in Sydney. So we'd be swapping one winter for another. I'd almost rather be cold at night and early morning to avoid excessively hot and humid days, as in the build up to the wet. I've been camping in the outback in the winter (freezing at night) , and in Kakadu in the build up so it's an easy choice. And thank you for the comments on the bush tents! I was concerned that we'd be paying $ for luxuries we can do without, most of the time, during our trip. Although I'm sure we'll do some tents, and some lodges. When we get farther along, I'll bring up specific locations. Thanks again. See you soon!

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of a company called Enchanting Africa? I can't find anything about them anywhere.

Here I go...I've only been to Botswana from the list you posted. But I would definitely recommend Namibia!!!!! Don't miss that. Etosha National Park is nice.

Botswana is also beautifull, The Okavango Delta and Chobe National Park. Near Chobe you can take a river Safari and spot the animals from your boat, that was a new experience for me, it was great!

I agree with you on flying. I mean, I love driving, but the truth is Africa is a big continent and you save lots of time by flying.

I must agree with Bushkid0. Travel agents not always give you the best. If you have got one you can trust on, then go ahead. Anyway, try to search on the web to re-check. And I am no SA resident.

I used Nomad Tours South Africa and really enjoyed it.

http://www.enchanting-africa.com/

They seem to be a branch of Enchanting Asia, and other Enchantings.

How did you come across them?

atravelynn, I think I saw a posting on another discussion board where someone else asked the same question (with no responses and very outdated) . So I looked them up and sent them a message about what we are looking at. Their website looks and reads very well. Then someone called me by phone from Africa to talk more to me about what we were looking for, and seemed to ask all the right questions and sounded very knowledgeable. She later sent me an email telling me she'd get me a proposal by Friday, and gave me a link to this other website with referrals (need I mention the name of the site??)(can I?). However, the comments on this site are 'strange' to say the least and following the comments raises big questions. Yet the company seems legit. It's confusing..

I think you can mention another site. If something appeared strange or confusing to me, I'd probably opt for another company, since there are many, many to choose from.

Yes, I agree. I've been trying to research them, and the most I can denote from what I've found is that this may be a new company created by a group of entrepreneurs in several countries, somehow connected through INSEAD. But I don't think we want to be their guinea pigs! Thanks for your input.

The other site was www.tripadvisor.com

I think we are getting closer to understanding how to proceed. But thought I'd ask specifically about Botswana. We are thinking of making that the longest part of our trip, and I'd appreciate suggestions on tented camps that you can recommend, and what are the don't miss areas for October. We want to stay in four star tented camps if possible, but are open to other suggestions if the areas are good. If there are specific companies you can recommend because they are the best people to go with in Botswana, please do tell who they are. Thanks again!

Our trip to Botswana in '06 was fantastic and I can't praise
Orient Express Safaris enough for their great people, camps, and food. We flew between 3 camps-Khwai River, Savute, and Eagle Island. check their website for more info on location, etc. I would suggest you do a search for travel agents in your area who do significant business in safaris and work with someone face to face. Good luck and enjoy.

I'm back again! We are going away tomorrow for one week, and we will look through all the materials I've collected then, and hopefully we will be booking our 'African trip of a lifetime' VERY shortly thereafter. I'm the one who likes to gather details early on, sort through it and then decide ahead of time and book early, he's the one who leaves everything to the last minute, looks it over, decides, and books, thus this has been a very slow process. Obviously two very different styles to plan this trip (or any trip). We are still planning on going to Rwanda, Kenya/Tan, Botswana. Unless we decide that it's just way too expensive, then we will probably have to drop either Kenya or Tanzania.

So, we are still planning to fly into directly into Nairobi via Johannesburg, on to Rwanda for 5 days, then back to Nairobi, where we are looking at :

6 days: Kicheche Camps Amboseli & Mara Which includes driving or flying to Porini Camp in the Eselenkei Cons Area N of Amboseli, and Amboselli for the next day, then fly via Nairobi to the Kicheche Mara Camp located on the Aitong Plains in the Northern Masai Mara. (OR, we could stay in two Kicheche camps in the Mara at another camp located in the Olare Orok Conservancy bordering the Reserve and not fly to Amboseli; where I'm reading mixed reviews of the recent Elephant situation).

My husband has also brought up Governor's Camp, so I don't know if we can or should add this one on for a night or two? It seems to me that staying within one company per country is the best way to economize. Oh, also, we have personally known 2 groups of people who have used Kicheche and have been very happy, and I notice someone else here is now going with them.

I have also looked at a combined trip with Africa Adventure Co, but haven't found anything with them that I like enough either because I haven't found one which doesn't have very long drives Kenya/Tanz; so if anyone has a suggestion on a company which could organise a combined flying Kenya/Tanz or Keny/Tanz/Rwanda trip without the very, very long drives, please let me know. We are interested in staying in smaller, tented camps where possible.

I'm looking at Lemala Camp at Ngorongoro Crater because we want to be in tents (with toilets) as much as possible on the trip.

Since I've been reading all the recent postings, I've noticed that atravalyn has suggested that Sept is better for Tarangire than Manyara, I'm wondering if we should include it in the itinerary? Also, if we're going to be in the Mara, is it essential to visit the Serengeti? If we don't include it, will we be sorry? This will probably be in Sept, but possibly late August as it's all dependent on availability.

I think what I am getting at, is if we don't do the entire itinerary, should we drop Kenya OR should we drop Tanzania? The places we are looking at in Kenya claim to be in areas which don't get too many people.

My husband, who is German and has read some reviews on German websites and says he has even seen travel advisories not to travel to Tanzania due to the increase of crimes with firearms. I've seen some of the discussions here and realise that these are usually isolated incidents.

After that we transit via Johannesburg to Botswana and I'm am leaning towards Wilderness Safaris, largely because they seem to give a tremendous amount of detailed information not only in their printed materials but on the web too (Safari_Craig). They also seem to have flexibility in where and how much, and they are appealing to me a lot. They seem like they'd be able to recommend which areas we should visit and for how long putting our needs ahead of theirs.

Another question today would be, if we could lower the costs a little bit by doing a mobile safari in Botswana, (or a few nights mobile safari) is that recommended if I'd want to sleep in a bed/cot vs on the ground, and have ensuite, and go the great viewing areas? Our priority is being in the best viewing areas.

I've been considering &Beyond too, but Wilderness still seems somehow better for us.

Thanks for all your help and advice, and ideas. Even though I haven't made much progress (it seems) on actually booking, I've been reading nearly all the postings every day and have gleaned much information from all of you wonderful people.

Responding to your questions/comments:

I think 2 locations in the Mara makes sense. You may do better price-wise by sticking with a single provider. I would definitely not tack one night onto another camp and probably not even two.

If you want to see Amboseli and possible views of Kili, then I’d include it. Amboseli has gotten adequate rain lately. You can see how it fits into the whole itinerary and then decide.

Africa Adv should be able to arrange any flights you wish if you request it. They did when I went with 3 friends to TZ and Kenya. But other companies can too. Of course you can work with separate Kenyan, Tanzanian, and Rwandan companies and piece your trip together. But some other companies that could do Kenya/Tanz/Rwanda (in some cases teaming with other ground operators) would be Go2Africa in S. Africa, Good Earth in Tampa and Tanzania, and Kiliwarriors in Virginia and Tanzania, to name a few.

The reason Tarangire is better in July-Oct than Manyara is they have their own little migration within Tarangire during that time so you see more animals and especially the eles that the place is known for. Manyara is at its best for wildlife viewing in Dec-Mar. But year round in Manyara there are hippos in and out of the hippo pool and lots of baboons, and the rather unusual blue monkey, plus maybe tree climbing lions, and some eles. Manyara also works well logistically for a one night stop to break up long drives and there is an airstrip nearby that is used for Ngorongoro along with Manyara.

Lemala would be a tented option at the crater and it uses that separate access road--attractive option.

There is no need to include Mara and Serengeti in the same trip in Aug/Sept unless you specifically wanted to go both places or wanted to maximize your odds of seeing the migration and maybe a river crossing. To the animals there is no distinction in the two connected parks. Aug or Sept is very good in the Mara. It is what I've chosen for Sept.

You asked about dropping Kenya or Tanzania if you don't do the whole itinerary. To decide, I'd see what your goals for the trip are. To see the migration? To see the Ngorongoro Crater, a World Heritage Site? To see as many different species as possible? To see certain types of animals? To minimize costs? To minimize seeing other vehicles? To incorporate walking or canoeing? You have mentioned you want to stay in tents and that can be accommodated in either country.

I'd ask your agent for a couple of Kenya/Tanzania options and see what they cost and how they fit with Rwanda and Botswana. Then you can decide if you want both Kenya & TZ or just one.

Not sure about the TZ warnings you mentioned, but the Tanzanian presidential election is in Oct and increased caution may be advised due to that. There are also some US State Dept warnings for Kenya that have been in effect for a decade or so. The wording has been scaled back over time.

Wilderness camps would be a fine choice in Botswana. AndBeyond would be too. Personal preference, what’s available, and deals on what you want can dictate which, and there are other options, in additon to these two.

You are right that a mobile would lower prices. You would want to check, but ensuite facilities is common and I recall comfortable sleeping arrangements in every tent I was in, but specifics evade me. The agent would have those specifics though.

To be sure the mobiles take you to good viewing areas, you should make that request known. Also post any mobiles you are considering here for more input.

If you are combining East and Southern Africa, and want one company overseeing it all and you want to book Wilderness Safaris, then something like Africa Adventure or Go2Africa may be best. You mentioned SafariCraig and I think his company does both East & Southern Africa, including Wilderness. It’s always wise and educational to contact more than one company.

You mention you have not made much booking progress, but until you know just what you want, don't put any money down for the booking part.

The more you know, the better questions you can ask of your agent and on this site, so you end up with a trip that is just right.

Agree with all atravelynn especially about tacking on one or two nights at Governors camps. Also I would not spend less then 3 nights per safari camp.

regards - tom

Thank you again! I'll get back to work on this and tell you how it's going in about a week and a half or so.

Hello again! Although still discussing, researching, etc a trip next Sept, my husband has just seen 3 specials offered by &Beyond in Botswana and also Tanzania for this March.

The camps are as follows:

Tanzania: 2 nts Grumeti Serengeti Tented Camp, 2 nts Serengeti under canvas, 2 nts Ngorongoro Cragter Lodge.

2 nts Matetsi Water Lodge (Zambezi River) 2 nts chobe Under Canvas
&
2 nts Sandibe (or Nxabega,) 2 nts Xaranna (or Xudum.)

I'd really appreciate your opinions on these specials, particularly on the locations in March.
The prices are very good, totaling $7,494 pp land arrangements and transport to
camps, meals, etc.

If you have any experience at these locations, please do tell! Because the prices are lower, we might just do this now, and then do Rwanda and Kenya another trip.

Thanks again!

For Tanzania - the offer you have from &Beyond is called their "Signature 2010" specials. Keep in mind Grumetti is in the Western Corridor so the migrations will not start arriving into that area until late May (historically). March is their low season for rates for a reason. If you want good general animal viewing it will still be good year round.

The special you are getting from &Beyond is stay5pay4 which applies to Under Canvas and Grumetti. If you do this trip I recommend spending all four nights under canvas instead of 2 & 2 (Grumetti and Under Canvas).

The Botswana price actually seems quite high and I am not 100% sure about Chobe Under Canvas when it may still be the rainy season. The special you are getting there is stay5pay4 Signature 2010. It applies to all their camps in Botswana plus Matetsi in Zimbabwe. The prices for an ecosystem-similar Botswana trip with Wilderness Safaris would come out significantly less IF you finished traveling by March 15, 2010 on their stay3pay2 (i.e. stay9pay6 or stay12pay9). The deal expires on March 15. Here is how I would substitute and use three nights at each place:

Toka Leya or River Club for Matetsi (TL and RC are 10-15 km upstream on the Zambia side. Matetsi is upstream by 35 km on the Zimbabwe side).
Savuti Camp for Chobe Under Canvas (this is the biggest difference as Savuti is a permanent luxury lodge – classified “classic” by Wilderness).
Chitabe Main Camp for Sandibe (they are so close they share an air strip).
Kwetsani or Little Vumbura for Xudum for the water activity camp.

Comments per your request:
Matetsi would be the place you stay at to see Victoria Falls. It is a good value and the tour of the Falls is included along with the airport transfers.

Chobe Under Canvas. This would be excellent in June-October. I am not sure about the tail end of the rainy season – maybe someone else can comment. The large herds will certainly not have arrived at the river yet. There will be good general game viewing and there is some savings by not having to use a charter flight to start this program. The public camps sites &Beyond rents for this program are only about one hour by road from the Kasane gate.

Sandibe – I was at Chitabe in March 2008. This area is excellent year round and really excellent June-October!
Xudum – this area is very wet right now. You may want to verify if they are EFFECTIVELY operating land based game drives right now or if you will only be able to do water activities.

Big Five – note that on the Botswana itinerary you will not see the big five. The 50 or so Rhino that have be re-introduced in the wild in Botswana are not near any of the places you mentioned or I mentioned except Toka Leya. I say this because Xudum talks about Big Five game drives. You will see plenty of Lion, Elephant, and Buffalo and perhaps Leopard at Xudum but not Rhino.

The price of the above with Wilderness would around $6,000 all inclusive starting in Maun and ending in Livingstone at the airport (or vice versa). I just booked someone on a very similar trip last week for March 6-15 and he leaves camp the day the special expires.

You are going through quite a process! There are so many choices and so many ways to book these things it can be tough to make sure you are finding the best value. Keep at it and I am convinced someone will comment on my plan above!

Craig Beal

To recap the exciting trip planning details:

“We are free to travel any time, and right now we are totally stuck because we want to see the gorillas in Rwanda, the great migration Kenya/Tanzania, and I'm determined to go to Botswana too.”

Looked like you were planning on at least a month of travel, up to 7 weeks.

“Although still discussing, researching, etc a trip next Sept, my husband has just seen 3 specials offered by &Beyond in Botswana and also Tanzania for this March.”


Tanzania: 2 nts Grumeti Serengeti Tented Camp, 2 nts Serengeti under canvas, 2 nts Ngorongoro Cragter Lodge.

2 nts Matetsi Water Lodge (Zambezi River) 2 nts chobe Under Canvas
&
2 nts Sandibe (or Nxabega,) 2 nts Xaranna (or Xudum.)

“If you have any experience at these locations, please do tell! Because the prices are lower, we might just do this now, and then do Rwanda and Kenya another trip.”

------------------------------------------

Splitting your trip into 2 outings would make sense to me for these reasons:

1. You can take advantage of seasonal conditions and/or price breaks in different regions.

2. You can savor the memories of one trip and still have another to look forward to. It spreads the joy.

3. If (heaven forbid) something occurred on one of the trips that cut it short you don’t have all your eggs in one basket and would not lose as much. You’re diversifying.

4. Based on Trip #1 you can tweak Trip #2. No matter how much planning you do, there is nothing like first-hand experience to help you design an itinerary to match your specific desires.

5. For many people 7 weeks can be a very long time away, no matter how enchanting the holiday surroundings.

6. You won't need to carry your gorilla tracking boots or other gear with you on the trip that does not include them.

7. You could concentrate on one region in each of your trips, saving the downtime and expense of cross-continent travel. But it looks like you are planning on East and Southern Africa in both of your trips.

The big downside of 2 trips is the double airfare. Also if you don’t like long plane rides, you have to do that twice.

My comments will encompass other properties beyond AndBeyond, which means the AndBeyond discount is not a factor. But you may be able to piece together other accommodations for similar pricing, especially if you swap out of Crater Lodge and into something less expensive at Ngorongoro Crater.

If you made a quick March getaway, the Serengeti would be good, but not Grumeti. As Craig states, that’s better May into July for the migration. But staying put in the Ndutu area of the Serengeti (which is where the Under Canvas should be & I’d check to make sure that is where it is) would be great. Four nights would not be too much as that’s where the wilde migration action should be in March, or at least you should be able to drive to it from Ndutu. There are other Ndutu mobile options besides AndBeyond.

A couple nts at the crater would be lovely too. Crater Lodge is the top end accommodation in Ngorongoro, but in the rainy season especially, I’d prefer Sopa (also a lodge) or Lemala (tent where I have not been) because of their own access road. Less traffic on these in the mud. To me that trumps luxury lodging.

I think the falls are at their fullest about March if that is important to you, but they are never underwhelming even in the driest times, the only times I’ve been.

I’ve heard great things about delta camps such as Kwara/Little Kwara in March. Chitabe is always good. But that is the rainy season in Botswana. One thing I’ve considered about Botswana, pricing, weather, and viewing conditions, based on comments from others with lots of experience in this region is this:

Okavango Delta camps (as opposed to Linyanti/Selinda) do not seem to vary as much in quality of wildlife viewing in the rainy season, but you get the rainy season price discounts if that’s when you travel. With the high Botswana prices, March may be a decent time to visit. Here’s one other thing regarding my fav Botswana camp, Duba Plains where lions and buffalo interact. While you may be getting more rain in March, the floods coming down from the mountains in Angola have not reached the area yet. That means you may be able to get to more areas of the concession so the lions are less likely to leave you behind for a day or two.

If you did your Botswana/Vic Falls component in March, then you would not need to make that journey in Sept. And you’d be in Tanzania with the migration at one of its most exciting times.

That means in Sept you could concentrate on Kenya (maybe we'll cross paths there) and Rwanda. It would allow for longer stays in the parks, like I'm going to do, with up to a week in the Mara--maybe splitting between 2 locations. You also could do more than just gorillas in Rwanda. There is the lovely Akagera National Park with many lakes and colobus monkeys and chimps in Nyungwe.

You'll want to act quickly on March if you want to be in Africa next month. Good luck!

One more thing. The floods in the delta are very big this year which can offer opportunties and make some areas less desirable. You'll want to take that into account in your plans for March through the end of 2010.

Thank you so much for your quick and thorough replies! We'll look further into it and let you know.

One more question though, are there any vaccinations that we'd need in Botswana in March that it is too late to get now?

Thanks again!

PS: the total price I noted above would include the Botswana and Tanzania trips. Ex intra Africa airfares of course. These are 'Last Minute Deals':
http://www.andbeyondafrica.com/specials/last_minute_deals

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/Botswana.aspx
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/tanzania.aspx

You can consult the CDC website and most importantly your own doctor or travel clinic.

I doubt you'd need rabies or Hep B. You'd want the Yellow Fever for Tanzania.

ok - then the price sounds better!

i still would try to get the four days under canvas instead of grumetti.

you pretty much nee malaris pills. heb a and heb b are recomended but it is too late for heb b as it is three shots three months apart.

craig beal

how do you plan on flying from east africa to southern africa?

craig

I think we'd have to go back through J Berg, but right now I'm not sure we'll even do this special one now. It's just that, as my husband became more involved, and started looking at the stuff that I'd gathered, he found these specials. I'm kind of trying to see if he'd be interested in doing just a Botswana trip soon and leave E Africa for later on. Coming from Australia, we are pretty used to very long flights as there's hardly anywhere we can go without them, so that's not important to us.

I think if we could be convinced that going to certain places in Botswana now would give us a great experience at a better price, that might be appealing. So your opinions on where to go in Botswana in March, are much appreciated.

We're waiting to hear back from our contact at &Beyond, but the conversation has opened up the possibility of splitting the destinations into two trips, so maybe that's progress, albeit not very much.

Hi tinydancer

I'm from Melbourne and have only been to Africa once (last year) but noted many similarities between the issues you are working through now and what I researched (with much help from forums like these) last year. We only had 5 weeks leave but had similar aims to you such as gorilla trekking, seeing the wildebeest migration, and seeing a variety of wildlife including the big 5. I love wildlife and Botswana was a place I became really interested in visiting after realising we would have spare time after going to East Africa and Rwanda. Unfortunately the main way to link East Africa and Southern Africa (Vic Falls, Botswana or South Africa) is to catch a flight down to Johannesburg and back up again.

In the end we went to Rwanda (gorilla trek), Kenya (Masai Mara), Tanzania (Tarangire, Ngorongoro Crater), Vic Falls, Botswana (Linyanti, Okavango Delta) and Namibia. We had an absolutely wonderful time and were fine with all the internal travel but I can understand some people like to spend more time in each place and travel a bit less.

Specialised Africa travel agents can offer heaps of great advice but I assume that by coming onto these forums you like to also do some of your own research. Besides these forums, one of the websites I found useful was www.africatravelresource.com (a UK based company but their website is quite handy), which shows the location of the various camps and some info about most of them. Note that their descriptions are biased towards camps which are less touristy.

We travelled in August/September so sorry I can't comment about the safari experience in March. I will say though that we found that East Africa (Kenya or Tanzania) is unsurpassed for large herds, general game, predators in abundance, especially with the wildebeest migration which was amazing, whereas Botswana had less overall game numbers but was a more intimate, possibly more pure, safari experience in the private concessions(far less vehicles, freedom to drive offroad). Botswana was far more expensive than East Africa. I mulled for hours over whether to go to Serengeti in addition to Masai Mara and ended up deciding against it. I'm still not sure whether we made the right decision but it certainly seemed to be a hassle travelling all the way around (via Nairobi) to get there; even though they are technically continuous with each other, the alternative of crossing the border overland through the western side is a long convuluted bumpy journey.

Incidentally you should book in for a travel clinic to check your Yellow Fever, ADT (tetanus), Hep A, and typhoid is up to date. I would recommend malaria prophylaxis. Hep B is optional but if you want it, it can still be given as an accelerated schedule within 3-4 weeks. Rabies is also optional.

Sorry for rambling on, I'm not sure whether you had any specific questions you wanted to ask, but if you're like me sometimes organising the trip is actually quite enjoyable as it builds the excitement/anticipation of your upcoming trip. Don't stress too much about it though, in the end, I'm confident that any safari you choose to do in Africa is going to be a truly amazing and memorable trip. In fact I'm meant to be organising a trip to Europe now but for some reason I keep coming back to read these Africa forums lol... there is just something alluring and magical about the place.

wow... I see you have been inundated with replies. I am a specialist African travel writer and editor (I'm South African) and I agree that you should do no more than 3 countries in about four weeks in southern Africa and then do East Africa on a next trip. A tour guide friend of mine is absolutely fantastic - his name is Ceaser Zandberg and he will tailor-make a trip for you. He runs his own lodge in Namibia as well. His details are: PO Box 1648, Swakopmund, Namibia

È: +264 81 129 5265

(/Fax: +264 64 402779

š: zandberg@iafrica.com.na

Web: www.kunenetours.com

In my experience (of five years as travel writer and editor), South Africa is not the "real" Africa. In Botswana you HAVE to go to the Delta - I would recommend Delta Camp and of course the Kalahari - here I would go for Grasslands and Deception Valley Lodge. If I were you I would do Botswana, Zambia (the Vic Falls) and Namibia.
Have a splendid time. If you need info from me, you are welcome to contact me at editor@leisurepublishinggroup.com
Best wishes
Jo

We're still working on it. Have a few questions we asked &Beyond, but no reply so far. I'll be back!

Go beyond AndBeyond for more info. You may end up with them in the end, but it's good to know your options. I'm sure if they are offering last minute deals, so are other agents. On the other hand, you might decide to spend your entire holiday in Swakopmund.

Did you know you are in violation with your ampersand? Really. The font has copyright problems. It's why I write out AndBeyond. Seriously.

Good luck in your planning, whether in the near future or a ways off.

Just to throw in a little info, check the site

luxurylink.com and go to southern Africa.

They have an andBeyond Bots special running. It's certainly tempting - no, christabir, no safari this year! : ) I don't know if the specials noted earlier above were the same as this one.

We haven't heard back about going to Botswana this month, so I think we are back to Sept/Oct and only doing East Africa: Rwanda, Kenya, Tanzania. I have put our ideas forward to a company here (Australia) that I was put on to by Wilderness Safaris (which do not do E. Africa) called Encompass Africa. Right now, the two companies that are staying in my mind are Encompass Africa (here) and Africa Adventure Co (USA). Maybe we're making this too complicated, but I don't think so. Thanks again! See ya soon I hope!

We are making lots of progress, but need some opinions on the following:

Aug or Sept:

So far we are looking at this possibility: fly directly from Kigali into Kilimanjaro, drive to Tarangire staying at Oliver's Camp 2 or 3 nights (we think 3)

Drive to Manyara doing a game drive there but continuing on to Ngorongoro Serena Lodge for 2 nights, with one drive into the crater. (staying here for the view, not the lodge)

Drive ( a bit bumpy but via Olduvai Gorge) to Serengeti Plains Staying 2 nights at Dunia Camp.

fly to N Serengeti.

Stay 4 nights (5?) at Sayari.

So, here we are so far. Questions: if we stay 4/5 nights at Sayari, can we skip the Masai Mara completely and not really miss doing something very, very similar?

We also had thought of visiting Amboseli, or Samburu, but Amboseli doesn't really appear to be at it's best currently, and Samburu seems to be much more touristy than we thought. Although, a new place has been recommended to us called Saruni Samburu which is outside of Samburu and looks to be in a spectacular location with drives into Samburu mid-day (this place entices me, but not my husband). The other option in Samburu is Elephant Watch, which looks o.k. But, my husband thinks that based on what we've read on the Tanzanian trip and what we've read about Kenya, we might skip Kenya altogether and save our $ for a river cruise in Europe.

If you think there is something really, really, REALLY special in Kenya at the time we are going, we'd love to hear about it.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts!

I don't know Dunia Camp but I'd spend those 2 nts in Central Serengeti rather than Southern Serengeti in Aug/Sept.

I think Tanzania would be a very good trip.

The migration in Sept in the Mara is quite special and I believe the variety and quantity of wildlife seen would be more than N. Serengeti. Though I have not been to N. Serengeti in Sept, only Aug., there was no comparison in that the Mara had a lot more activity. But there would definitely be more people in the Mara.

I do think 5 nts Sayari is a good amount of time so that you maximize your odds of seeing a river crossing at that location. It also gives you more time to track down predators and other interesting species. I've considered this area and have thought 5 nts would be just about right, certainly no less.

Though I have not gone and only investigated Elephant Watch Camp, I think that would be very special to accompany the researchers and get near the elephants and have a more intimate experience with these creatures than you can other places. Samburu has 5 unique species not found in most of Tanzania or further south in Kenya. There would be more people in Samburu than Sayari in N. Serengeti (which should be very remote) and there will be even more people in the Mara. But I would not call Samburu touristy. It has great elephant activity, but then so does Tarangire, which you will be visiting.

I am terribly biased, but I would not skip Kenya for a river cruise in Europe. I would skip Kenya if adding it meant my budget was beyond what I could comfortably spend on a holiday.

I'm still not sure about skipping the Masai Mara completely. Once we have everything else sorted, I will broach the subject again. It occurred to me yesterday, when trying to fall asleep, and all the details of going to Africa kept popping into my head so I couldn't, that skipping the Masai Mara because it's too crowded with tourists, reminded me of several other places which people complain about. One is Yosemite National Park. Lots of people complain it is too crowded, but it is so beautiful that even the crowds don't spoil it! Then there is Churchill in Canada (we went 2 years ago), many people say it's too touristy and the bears look for food in the local garbage dump. Well, yes, the bears come too close to town, and yes, there are a number of tour vehicles on the tundra, but you'll see dozens more polar bears around Churchill than anywhere else in the world for special reasons, so going there means your experience of seeing many bears is unique. Finally, I think of Bali, Indonesia. 28 years ago my Australian friend complained that she didn't want to go there because it was too over run with Australian tourists. We went anyway and found most of it to still be pristine and untouched; and it remained so until the past 10 years. Your comments are very much appreciated! I've also read that in the Masai Mara there are large herds which are resident, so that would add to the impact when the migration enters those areas and they join up. It's all still being developed. (P.S.: river cruise is husband's idea)

I was in the Mara in August 2008 - I could not imagine a trip to East Africa without spending time there. The migration was incredible. Predators were plentiful - (saw many, many lion, several leopard and cheetah). I was lucky enough to hit 2 crossings. The only time that I felt "crowded" was at the crossings - but the site was so incredible it didn't really bother me. The rest of the time sightings were so plentiful that I never encountered more than a few vehicles. I was fortunate enough to be in private vehicles most of the time and could sit and enjoy each opportunity until I was ready to move on. Personally, I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to visit again - particularly during August/September. I've not been to the Serengeti, so I don't have anything to compare the experience to, but I can't imagine anything better than the experience in the Mara that time of year.
Here's a link to my photos from that time period (late August).
http://eastafricaaugustandseptember2008.shutterfly.com/#

safariwannabe, thank you for your thoughts and thank you for the link to you fantastic photos! I think we are probably going to add in at least a few nights in Masai Mara.

Tinydancer … don't miss the Mara at that time of year! Just go.

Yes, I think we're pretty certain to do 3 or 4 nights there as well. The person we have been working most closely with tended to agree with us about 'doubling' up by going to the Serengeti and also the Masai Mara, so we are running it by him to get his opinion once again.

I also wanted to let atravalynn know that the person we are working with suggested Dunia Camp, and one description of it we found here: http://www.africatravelresource.com/T1/africa/tanzania/n/ser/c/TSAS/0/lodge/01intro/

It's also supposed to be good for leopard spotting, which is very high on my list, so if I see them in more than one location I will be thrilled. We will then drive to Sayari, which is fine with us. It means a full day game drive across the Serengeti. We are keeping our car and our guide for the entire time in Tanzania.

We must be getting close to our final plan as I am getting SO excited I can feel my heart racing just as I am writing this! In the beginning, my head was spinning so much I couldn't feel the excitement. Even letting go of the idea of also going to Botswana on this trip is now a distant memory and mentally Botswana now really does feel miles away from East Africa (which is why it just didn't really fit with this trip)(next trip though!)

PS: artavelynn: the Sayari we are going to is the Sayari Mara, not the Sayari South.

atravelynn: Sorry, I totally missed your message much earlier about the ampersand. Just read it again and it took awhile to sink in. Thanks for the info again.

No apologies to me, I'm just the ampersand messenger. AndBeyond is the one getting their legal undies in a bundle. With the prospect of big lawsuits, I can understand the concern.

My comments did apply to Sayari Mara, which is in the northern part of the Serengeti in Tanzania. So there was no missunderstanding on that. With all the camps starting with S all over the Serengeti and Mara, it can be confusing. Further confusing the issue is that Sayari Mara has the name Mara in it, but it is not in the official Maasai Mara. It is probably as close as you can get to Kenya's Maasai Mara, while being in Tanzania. And that offers a unique location.

Hi atravelynn! After receiving your reply and other's from safariwannabe and twaffle, about not missing the( Masa)i Mara, we had a look at many different sites about the migration at the time of year we are going, probably Sept, but could be an overlap beginning in Aug-Sept, as we haven't locked in our dates yet. Because no one can really say where or when the migration will be with certainty, we figure that staying in Sayari, which is in the Mara triangle of the N Serengeti, and Kichwa Tembo in Masai Mara Kenya, that is 2 places in the Mara which give us the best opportunities for river crossings, but also other types of interaction. Am I wrong?

We plan to do Rwanda first, so may try doing that around the third week of August so we can begin in Tanzania right at the end of August. Dependent on availability, etc.

Those 2 spots should give you a great trip, views of the migration, and other great sightings, all in lovely accommodations.

This is the itinerary our TA is working on pricing up for us:

Rwanda:
2 nts incl 2 treks Virunga Lodge
1 nt Kigali /Top Tower

Tanzania:
3 nts Oliver's Camp
2 nts Ngorongoro Serena Lodge
2 nts Dunia Camp
4 nts Sayari Camp

Kenya:
3 nts Rekero
2 nts Kicheche Bush
1 nt Nairobi

Mid Aug - mid Sept.

Fingers crossed it comes to be!

I like your trip! Not sure about the Dunia location, though.

Hi atravelynn! I think he has selected locations based on what we have discussed and it fits in with a drive-through game drive at Lake Manyara after leaving Ngorongoro our last morning. He has stayed in all the camps/ lodges we are staying with the exception of Kigali, which is a hotel I found myself. This area has large lion prides, which we specified. So although it's not in the path of the migration at that time, it still has much to offer. We developed a concern of sharing cars with people not of our choosing (and Sayari is family friendly), and asked if we could arrange our own cars and driver. So we will drive a long day's game drive across the Serengeti to Sayari, where he said we'd otherwise have to book a private car there, which would cost and arm and a leg. So, it suited us to have one long day driving, well two when Kili - Oliver's is taken in, but not quite so long. The trip as planned has balanced out to be one we both love in talking about it, and will probably not blow our budget, while giving us several luxury, but not over the top expensive locations and keeping up our minimum standards overall. It was a real process arriving at this itinerary. But in the end each step was necessary for us to get our heads around what we are doing.

He is working on a quotation for us now. Do you think I should request a couple of other outfits to quote on the same itinerary just to be sure? He helped us with this a lot, even up to the routing of our flights which is brilliant as he has suggested, but I'd hate to think I could have gotten the same exact trip at a significant discount from another TA.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a driver to transport us from the Mara triangle in Serengeti to the Masai Mara using the Isebania border and the western Great Rift Escarpment road? Someone recommended this option as opposed to flying via Arusha/Nairobi with an overnight in Nairobi.

tinydancer - some do this transfer, usually group tour operators. But it's a long drive, taking up most of the day. And, unless the outfitter you're using is permitted to operate in both countries you'll have a guide/vehicle change at the border.

Hi sandi, I kind of figured this was the case. Also, I've found conflicting info as to which and whether the borders are open because Tanzania wants to protect their environment from too much traffic coming into the park from Kenya. I just had to find out so I could eliminate that possiblity. Thanks for your input!

If you get the itinerary you want promptly and costs are in line with what you thought, and you've been happy with all your interactions, go ahead and book. I believe you are going in Sept, which is a popular month, so you don't want to monkey around too long or nothing will be available.

If you were in the initial stages planning for a trip further in the future, I'd likely suggest to contact a couple of providers.

I am assuming you have some guidelines for cost, even if you don't have other quotes with which to compare. For a general idea on pricing, you could check Africa Travel Resource, E-gnu, or Go2Africa. Not all are current and they may not represent special offers. All your properties are not necessarily listed at all three of those sites, but similar properties may be. You could also post the cost here for feedback.

Dawdle too long and Rekero and Kicheche may be booked. For that very reason, if you don't get something promptly from your agent, I would inquire elsewhere. You don't want to have a game played in which an agent delays so long that you no longer have the option of checking with the competition because nothing's available.

If "he" is Andre or Mark at AAC then I doubt shopping around will change your price much.

Craig Beal

I think it's safe to say that we feel very happy with the person we've been working with, and only went through the exercise to reassure ourselves. With any luck we will have this put to bed Monday or Tuesday. And we really are flexible on dates so if we have to go a bit later later on to get what we want that's fine. Because of the route we have selected, the later we go the more time we are spending in Tanzania post migration peak. I think. Which is what I think atravelynn was referring to about Dunia, if I am correct. but we are also not going exclusively for the migration, but for the whole experience as well.

We recently went on a driving trip from Darwin to Brisbane through the some of the most barren country in Australia, and although it was a lot of day after day after day after day of driving through flat country passing 3 trailer long road trains and sleeping in very 'unusual' campgrounds, we'd probably both be into doing it again one day just because sometimes the experience happens at a deeper level and just 'being there', completely present, is life altering. Guess I'd better do a trip report on that one pretty soon!

Safari_Craig, to respond to your input, his name is Jono of Encompass Africa.

I really didn't intend to waste anyone's time, but needed to reaffirm our own confidence. I think this person really does understand what we are after. No one else so far has come that close, and that is one of the things we like so much about him. I asked people for quotes, not just to check the cost, but also to seen how they responded to what we wanted.
He's still the best provider.

We are on the road till late Sunday, so hubby will not look into this until we are home. That's why the delay.

But I really, really do appreciate all the commments you have taken the time to share with me here.

Sounds like a good plan. I can't make comment on Jono. I thought you might have been referring to AAC in which case I would have endorsed them. Good luck.

Craig

He was recomended to me by Wilderness Safari's as their rep, or one of them, down here so I took it to mean that they had confidence in him and they looked pretty good to me.

If it was solely up to me, it would be booked already but sometimes these things take a little bit of time. All the players have to feel totally comfortable or else it's MY fault!

If you get my drift.

But they'll give you all the credit when it turns out to be their trip of a lifetime!

I hope so. When when I wanted to take a tour in Soweto about 12 or so years ago he argued that it was rude to stare at people in poverty, and instead wanted to pay to go see local dancing or something like that. Then when we were taken through Soweto with a company which was from there and he said it was great!

And when I wanted to rent a jeep in Bali to drive up N and go through all the villages and rice paddies on the local back roads (I bought a good map) he said I was crazy. that if we had an accident they'd throw me in jail and our insurance wouldn't cover me, but he came along for the ride and actually admitted to me that it really was a GREAT idea! (and the driving was actually easier than it looked.)

Hopefully, we will have this sewn up Monday or Tuesday. I might even start a new topic once we do, because I'll have a whole new list of questions beginning with "How do we do this trip with only 15kg baggage allowence? (apart from the zip-lock pants atravelynn,that is!) I figure that first we have to weigh our camera gear and bags, and then figure how much room we'll have for clothes after that. But that is another topic!

Thank goodness! This part is finally over. I couldn't have done it without all the good advice and ideas from people on this website. I am absolutely amazed at what we can accomplish through this technology.

We ended up booking through Encompass Africa in Brisbane, QLD, and I could not recommend Jonathon Wilson more highly. He worked so hard for us. He stayed in constant contact day and night until we had our confirmations, and he was simply a pleasure to work with. I have absolute confidence in what he's put together for us.

So I will end this very, very long post, and start a new one soon with questions!

Again, thank you all!