abk

Hi - there seem to be so many experts out there! Driving myself mad to decide on mala mala or londolozi for early November 2007. Game viewing main priority - especially leopard. Which is better value for money and which the more authentic feel? When people talk about a private vehicle - is this a very expensive extra? Also, rain wise - likely to be very wet or quick showers?
Please help! Must make up my mind at last

eyelaser

Both properties are in prime leopard country and your sightings should be excellent at either one of them. As far as authentic, I am not sure either is truly authentic when you consider air conditioning, telephones, computers, faxes etc. More authentic would be a tented camp such as Tanda Tula or Ngala tented camp. So you may have to choose which is more important. Mala Mala's main camp is very large and hotel like. They have two other very luxurious lodges that are smaller but far from authentic. Londolozi has a number of camps, smaller than Mala Mala main camp, probably about the size of the two new camps, Rattray's and Sable. For the buck, Mala Mala's main camp can't be beat if game viewing is the most important aspect. The other thing that is not mentioned too often is that Mala Mala quotes in dollars whereas Londolozi in Rand so currency fluctuation plays a role in cost. A month ago Londo would have cost you 10% less than today! So it is a bit of a crap shoot if you haven't booked. Obviously once you have the price is fixed regardless of the currency changes (I guess there may be a provision if the Rand really goes up as is stated on Singita's rate sheet). I am not quite sure about the weather in November but I do not think it is the truly wet season and more likely showers than constant rain.
Once out in the bush, in either locale, you will have a great time and probably see tons of stuff. A private vehicle is more costly. At Mala Mala at least it adds $125/empty Land Rover seat at Main Camp and Sable and $190/empty seat at Rattray's. If you are keen at going at your own pace,& having the best photographic opportunities from all sides it is a real plus...but it does add cost. Hope this helps.
Eric

atravelynn

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34902458
Here is the same question!

napamatt

Eyelaser

"Very large and hotel like" a maximum of 36 guests while larger than many lodges is not hotel like, Furthermore the excellent organization and use of space means you are rarely aware of the other guests. Your language I think paints an innapropriate picture, though I fully agree on game viewing, and I can't imagine why anyone would go to SSGR if that was not the number one priority. But of course there's always the famous spa girl.

eyelaser

My language is my opinion nothing more or less. To me it felt hotel like. That does nothing to deminish the wonderful game experience, great rangers and customer service from the whole staff. I do not believe my observation is unique. Many who have stayed at lodges in Botswana even "up scale" ones like Mombo agree with me. This is not to say that Mala Mala is not a world class property. But when I give my opinion I try to be honest. If I had a relationship with Mala Mala and had stayed there 5, 10, 15 times over the years I would probably have a different view as my relationship with the stafff would probably make me feel this was more like a second home...but sadly this is not the case. I would go back to Mala Mala in a heartbeat because of the game viewing and if fortune smiled stay at Rattray's or Sable camp. We all have favorite cities, hotels, game lodges and restaurants and should be able to give an honest opinion...but it is only opinion. Your comment that their organization and use of space means you are hardly aware of other guests could not have been more different than my experience at Main camp. Being charged for every soft drink or alcohol when most lodges include them in the tariff is also more hotel like. Having to check in at a hotel like reception desk, and leave passports is hotel like compared to most other southern African properties I have stayed at. I understand the rate is lower but I think people would be willing to pay a few bucks more than get a bill for 23 cokes, 12 club sodas, 8 local beers etc.
Unfortunately I really believe my characterization is correct and would like those who have stayed at lodges in Botswana to comment on the "feel".
Its not merely the 36 guests, it is the manner in which the lodge runs.
Believe me, I had a great time there...they were great to my wife on her birthday, my daughter's dietary needs and we had a great ranger and tracker. For the money it is a bargain, if one can say $500-575pppn can be a bargain, considering the quality of the sightings. I was fortunate to meet the owner on my last morning and spent a half hour speaking with her alone with my wife. She was charming, warm and genuinely interested in our stay. It was interesting that she commented to me that she felt they had a way of doing things that were different than the upscale lodege like Singita and were not interested in having those things but then they built two new camps to compete with the luxury of the newer lodges.
Let me just add one last point, when I planned my trip for 2007 my decision where to spend 10 nights was simple...Botswana or Mala Mala...this time Botswana won out but next time it is just as likely to be Mala Mala.
Eric

napamatt

Eric

That puts your initial comment in a better context and you make some fair points. Interestingly enough neither Sable or Rattrays have many of the luxury features associated with a Singita. The food is very similar, there is no spa, the roms are magnificent and far more provate, and the number of guests per vehicle is smaller, which again goes more to the ethos of the game comes first.
I guess I am a little sensitive to some of the criticism of MM, which quite often comes from people who haven't even stayed there.
I think comparing SSGR properties with Botswana is very difficult, because the rules are so different for operators in Botswana.
I think the word hotel connotes something different than MM to me. I think more of Ritz-Carlton or Marriott's etc. I think its tough to make that comparison, but for those without any first hand experience, they may well think thats what you mean.
I think we can both agree that for $575ppn it offers one of the best game viewing values anywhere.

eyelaser

I do not want anyone to think that I put Mala Mala in the context of Marriot's or Ritz-Carlton when I refer to it as hotel like...not that there is anything wrong with those hotel chains. I would like to know from your experience how Rattray's and Sable camps compare to Singita's Ebony and Boulders as I am only personally familiar with the latter two.
While I understand the rules may be different in the two countries often people will choose to go to one or both of these destinations and may be influenced by the feel of a lodge as well as the game experience. Remember abk's question related to authenticity and you must agree that the experience is far from "authentic". For authenticity maybe Marksafari's will fill the bill.
Anyway, let us agree to agree that Mala Mala is a very special place which certainly delivers a great wildlife experience.
Eric

cary999

I will agree with Eric about charging for cokes and beer. It cheapens the atmosphere. (Wine and liquor, ok, charge). I don't not agree about a "hotel" feeling at Mala. The only time I'm aware of even more than 8 guests is at meal times. For me the one really major thing that sets Mala apart from the other camps I've been to (non in Sabi Sands) are the rangers and trackers. Mala's rangers are not a cut above the rest, they are ten cuts above the rest. He is with you 12 hours a day so he has to be sharp, diplomatic, aware. The rangers are excellent communicators, their English and vocabulary is excellent. Most (maybe all?) are university educated. They listen, they know what you are interested in. They know photography and have a personal camera with them. This is a big deal for me, this photography thing. Other “native” guides, at other camps, have not grown up with cameras, do not have a camera, and thus can’t appreciate the importance of lighting and subject position. And then, there are the Shangaan trackers, they set high and in back on the Land Rovers. And on every game drive, not just at night with a spotlight. These natives are simply remarkable in seeing and knowing the game. While the ranger concentrates on driving the tracker sees every animal and insect within 400 meters all around, I swear they do. Your game drive guide/ranger is what makes the game drive for you. So, until I can afford a private guide/ranger and vehicle, I'll take Mala's rangers any time, every time.
regards - tom

abk

thank you all for your replies to my questions? You seem to be debating amongst yourselves but I am STILL NOT SURE what to do - Mala Mala or Londolozi?
You all seem to think leopards are likely in either place - take note of Mala Mala's more hotel charging policy -
but which is better value for money if the game experience is vy similar?

KayeN

Hi abk,

Mala Mala wins hands down, especially when Londo will be in new hands by the time you are booking.

I have been to 3 Londo camps, and had one far from favourable time at Bateleur but good times at Pioneer and Founders.

Have also been to MalaMala Main Camp and Rattrays. This is by far my most favourite destination in Africa!

Gameviewing is my top priority and no-one delivers like MalaMala and this includes the ranger aspect as to me, family history is vital. And that would be a big mark against Londolozi as I do not believe they have the background knowledge as compared to the records kept by MalaMala.

To me if it rains, it rains. I have only been in November once and no rain, have been a few times in December and it has rained, but would never make me miss a gamedrive. I have never felt the need to pay for a private vehicle, although I have no doubt it would be fabulous. I was given one at Londo for 10 nights and it certainly improved my stay, no doubt about that.

On the other matters raised, I have never felt a hotel-like atmosphere at MM, in fact, quite the opposite, though to be fair, I do go a lot, but also to be fair, that was not the feeling on my first or second visits either.

Now that someone has mentioned the drinks, I love paying for what I drink, while I hate paying for alcohol that I do not drink, and that includes taking nieces over 12 but under 18 and still paying for alcohol which they cannot drink.

Londolozi was expensive for me and with all the camps having renovations, I believe, that will make them more expensive I would think.

So for me, abk, this is a no-brainer! I would be heading directly to MalaMala!

Kind regards,

Kaye

afrigalah

I wonder why we bother with such terms as 'hotel-like'. It covers such a wide range of sins...just about everybody's interpretation would be different. Kay doesn't get a hotel-like feeling from MM, and that's fair enough...I respect her preferences. But I get one from just reading about the place and wouldn't consider going within cooee of it. An even less meaningful description is 'rustic', which is often used in this forum. One person's 'rustic' is another's 'luxury'. Some people use 'rustic' to put a place down, others use it in a complimentary sense. Better to spell out in detail what a place looks like and offers (or demands).

John

santharamhari

Hi Eric,

I wont compare any of the SSGR properties to Botswana. Apples and Oranges!!!! (even the smaller props in SSGR)......they are both VERY different. One more Wilderness and one VERY professionally managed.....

Hari

atravelynn

John,
You have convinced me to retire the word rustic from my Fodors vocabulary. The last few times I've used it, I actually felt I was mislabeling a luxury propety with an incorrect word even though I view rustic positively.

Rustic will go the way of "end of the day." I hate that term unles it is truly describing a specific event occurring near sundown.

eyelaser

First off I apologize to anyone who is a big fan of Mala Mala who may have been offended by my characterization. I hope that I also conveyed that I had a wonderful time there and would go back in an instant. My reply was merely my opinion as to how I felt about the Lodge because the question was asked regarding authenticity. In my opinion this goes beyond game viewing. Hari, that is why I compared it to Botswana, not to say one was better than the other but to convey a difference in feel. In my opinion, canvas tents and outdoor fire pits are more authentic of Africa past. This does not in any way demean any of the SSGR lodges. I have had my best sightings at Singita and MalaMala and love them for what they are but the feeling of a small tented camp is very different. There is no question that Mala Mala is exceptionally well run, the rangers and trackers amongst the best in Africa and the ownership commited to the highest standards in the industry but it does feel different there and I thought that was part of the question asked by abk.
If we all agree on everything and feel intimidated to diagree then the opinions rendered become useless to those who want unbiased feedback.
Hari, hope you feel better!
Regards,
Eric

afrigalah

Eric,

That's how I read your remarks in the first place. But then I have no interest in MM, which makes it easy for me.

John

Tanky

What's a 'native' guide exactly? Is not a white South african a native?

Personally all guides I have had the fortune of having (black...er, I mean 'native' or white) have understood the elements of photography. Two 'native' ones were far better than the 'non-native' ones...but then that might be the 10-15 years of guiding experience they had. I'm sure they picked up something from the smug, superior ex-colonialists in that time.

cary999

Tanky,
Are you talking about Mala, some other camp, South Africa, or some other country?
regards - tom

cary999

Tanky, I'm not trying to be funny. This is a very complicated subject that can be read 20 different ways with 40 different implications and with no one talking about the same thing. I agree basically with what you are saying. Which is, I think, that it is the experience, intelligence, and motivation of the guide that counts. My personal experience with around 10 guides in four African countries is that - except for Mala and one guide in Zambia, none of the others knew very much about photography. Or, at least not that I was aware of.
regards - tom

santharamhari

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the clarification....

Yes, i agree COMPLETELY different experiences.....Botswana and any of the SSGR properties.

While, i've enjoyed some fabulous sightings in the SSGR....it just felt very different from Botswana. Not just the lodges and posh decors, but, even the wilderness areas felt a bit more man managed.......still a great experience, just different.

Personally, it's BOTSWANA for me....

Hari

atravelynn

In previous posts I've asked what I had hoped would return these kinds of comments on Mala Mala. This is the first thread that has actually produced honest impressions. Thanks for the responses. I'm going for 4 nights this June and am looking forward to it.