KWANDO vs WILDERNESS VEHICLES

The Kwando vehicle is the Uri, it has 8 seats. The driver and a passenger sit up front, with two rows of 3 individual seats behind. The tracker sits up front on the hood (bonnet). Kwando likes the intimacy of all guests being close to the guide. Issues with the layout, 3 people can be very uncomfortable, its better than an airline seat, but not much. Furthermore there is no space for large bags / backpacks full of lenses, spare bodies etc.
However if there are four in the vehicle then the middle seat would be available. Obviously with six in the vehicle, keen photographers may want to be on the outside, lets hope not everyone is that keen, or fights may ensue.

Wilderness vehciles have driver and passenger, followed by three rows of three. They do limit occupancy to six guests, so effectively a full vehicle uses 60% of capacity, leaving middle seats free for camera gear. A full Uri uses 85% of capacity and 100% if the tracker needs to vacate his perch, such as at Lion sightings.
I think it should be a consideration if two of you have lots of equipment that you want to get to easily and the camp is full. But remember even if occupancy is not 100%, you may still be in a full vehicle.
Most of the Kwando fans on the board, stump up for the private vehicle.

Thanks nappamatt I really appreciate the excellent comparison of the two safari vehicles. We will certainly take it into consideration. We will also be spending 4 nights at Mala Mala main camp. Are the Mala Mala vehicles similar to Wilderness?

cj

Occupancy will be key. When we were at Kwando, on our first game drive there were only 3 other people in the vehicle (plus the two of us and the driver), so 6 total -- no one had to sit in the middle. Then after that for the other three days there was only one other person besides us and the driver, so only 4 total in the vehicle. It was perfect. But that was in the low season. In August you may not be as lucky.

I found the WS vehicles are the worst in Botswana, compared to Kwando, A&K, Uncharted, etc, I would say even the worst of all my safaris. The first row is okay. 2nd row is for people with very long legs, and since I never put my photo equipment on a seat (if things can fall then they will) I had sometimes difficulties to get it in time; even worse: since the foot space isn't separated, your photo bag can slide through the whole vehicle. 3rd row is for very short people (or people with amputated legs); you sit like a monkey and there's not much space for equipment; you're also quite far away from the driver and sometimes have problems to hear what he says.

We just returned from Kwando last week. I can't tell you how many times my husband and I commented how happy we were that we paid extra for the private vehicle. You have more room to take photos, you have more room for your equipment and most important you decide when you leave camp, when you return and what you see. Every vehicle we saw (at Kwara, Lagoon and Lebala) were always full (and March is considered low season) and we noticed that the group vehicles didn't stay out as long as the private vehicles. Pay for the private vehicle...trust me...when you see those Uri's going by crammed with people you'll be glad you did!

If cost is an issue - you can get fantastic photo opportunities even in a shared vehicle. Talk to the driver and tracker, show them your interest in all aspects of wildlife, ask intelligent questions, in short, motivate them to do a great job. Don't let you just drive around, experiencing the "normal program". If you do it right then there isn't much difference between a shared and private vehicle. It depends on you and your fellow travellers.

Mala Mala uses Landrovers very similar to Wilderness. Again they limit occupants to six, plus driver and tracker, who sits at the back. The layout of these vehicles is more comfortable than WS, I will agree with Nyama on the back row of WS vehicles, though at 5'10" I've never been uncomfortable. Lst time I was at Kwnado, the vehicle was open at the side, no door, which meant I was in constant fear of losing my bag.
Again private vehicle is the best, but failing that I'd take my chances in WS over Kwando, just my $0.02.

napamatt, if you can't leave the vehicle open doors give you a good opportunity to make some low-level shots. Some photographers prefer this. To secure your bag just put it between your feet. My two cents.

This issue concerns me as well. It seems as though at Kwando, considering the small number of tents, that once one or two couples decide to take a private vehicle, they will fill the remaining vehicle with everyone else. There really isn't much difference in price anymore between the two groups of properties. I know the guiding is supposed to be fabulous at Kwando but those who go to Wilderness have equally good things to say. It is unfortunate that the Kwando management can't appreciate that a lot of us are serious about photography and their overfilling vehicles is just not acceptable. I see no justification to seat people three abreast on safari. Even less justified in view of the high cost of these properties. Just my two cents. I have really learned a lot reading this thread, thanks KIBOKO for starting it.
Chuck

Let's do some basic arithmetic. As far as I know most of the WS and Kwando camps accommodate 10 clients and have two vehicles for shared use plus one extra for private use. That means you usually have a distribution of 4 and 6 clients per vehicle if no private vehicle is used. If 2 clients have hired the private vehicle, you have the remaining 8 clients in one vehicle??! Sorry, that simply doesn't work with a 2-row Kwando vehicle, and I'm not aware that WS do that with their 3-row vehicles (at least if not requested by an 8-head client group).

nyama,
Must be new math

safarichuck, you are right in one point: if you got the 6-client vehicle at Kwando, you have at least one row with 3 clients (1+3+2). You might call this an overfill.

However, I've never experienced a game drive with six enthusiastic photographers and big equipment in one vehicle. So in most cases even this configuration works fine for the photographers.

I've never been in a game vehicle where 3 people had to sit in one row. (Lucky me ???) And if they tried to seat me in a row of three, even if on the outside not middle, I'd "have kittens" as we say. There would be some serious talking with the office after the game drive.

FWIW, I have never been to Kwando nor to any Wilderness camps.

BTW, I don't like the idea of the tracker setting up front on the hood/bonnet. Although I have not been on a game drive that did this, it just seems as if the tracker is going to be too much in your line-of-sight. (The radio aerial on Mala's vehicles is bad enough ). But will probably soon see this in some of the camps I go to in May (Madikwe Hills, Kings Camp, Leopard Hills).
regards - tom
ps - Uri?? Is it a model of Toyota or Rover?

tom, I guess you have to put a lot of camps in Botswana/Zambia on your black list. This combination of 10 clients and 2 vehicles is quite common, and so far I only know 3 operators who are using 3-row cars.

The tracker is only in your line-of-sight if you sit directly behind him, beneath the driver.

I prefer the tracker in the front. It's quite interesting to see how he's doing his job and, more important, in which direction he is looking. Sometimes this gives you the crucial opportunity to make a good photo before an animal is running away.

Since y'all are talking about safari vehicles and photography, where is the ideal place to sit in the vehicle if you are taking photos.

This May, I am on a WS Mobile Safari in Botswana. There are 7 on our safari of which 3 are my traveling companions. They are pretty much relying on me for the photos on this trip.

I am not sure if WS Mobile safaris use a different vehicle on their mobile safaris than the one napamatt mentioned earlier. Has anyone here been on a WS mobile safari and know what vehicle is used and the seating arrangements?

Just wondering if the experts here feel there is a "best" seat in safari vehicles for photography?

I prefer the first row behind the tracker (or the driver if no tracker is on board). It's the best place to see in which direction he is looking.

If there is a radio antenna in front which can't be removed I try to sit just behind the antenna. In this position it only needs small movements to shoot around it.

The Wilderness mobile I did had that vehicle described by NapaMatt.

I don't think I understand the reference to 10 people in camp in one of the above posts. All the Kwando camps have more than 5 tents, except perhaps the new Little Kwara, and I believe there are only a few Wilderness camps left with 5 tents. Most camps have 6 or 8 tents, and some have 9 or 10 tents.
In any case, I don't believe there is any way to guess ahead of time how many people may be in each vehicle. Too many variables-whether the camp is full or not, how many vehicles the camp has on hand, how many private vehicles have been reserved, whether some people are on a water activity instead of a game drive.
Based on all the trip reports I have read, it appears that Kwando routinely places three persons across the seats, unless a private vehicle is reserved for yourself or your party. So it would seem to me that you should be expecting that, maybe you will luck out and have only 4 in your vehicle, but that can't be counted on. If that is not acceptable to someone, then they should probably reserve a private vehicle or go to another camp. If three people are seated across drive after drive, I assume that it is only polite to rotate the seats, so that the same person isn't always stuck in the middle.

brandywine, these calculations are simple worst case scenarios. You can do the same for 16 clients, in this case Kwando needs at least 3 vehicles for shared use. This number is fixed.

If the camp isn't full, clients make a water activity or just need a break and stay in camp, or book a private vehicle, the situation is even getting better.

If it's not, there may be a simple reason: for instance, management decided to send only 2 instead of 3 vehicles out. If you know these little calculations, then it's your time to complain, and I guess in most cases you will succeed.

You also should have a closer look at those trip reports. Did people experience an overfilled vehicle, or did they just see it? This could be an important difference. For instance, last September I was the only person in a shared vehicle for two days although the camp was fully booked (not Kwando). The reason: the other 8 clients were travelling in a group and decided to use the same vehicle (which was really overfilled then).

Adding all of the pros and cons it seems as though Wilderness Camps are a far far better choice for those interested in serious photography. Kwando might have great guiding but "gimme a break", three passengers abreast-no way. Keep this thread alive, pehaps someone at Kwando will read it and take out the center seat and buy another vehicle. At their recent prices they have no excuse for offereing such second rate seats. As they say on these forums, "just my two cents".
Chuck

Having just returned from these three camps, there are 8 tents at Kwara, Lagoon and Lebala that accomodate 16 guests each. I believe Little Kwara is four or five tents. And they had more than three vehicles at each camp...they even brought over extra vehicles from Lagoon to Lebala to accomodate the private vehicles. They also have to have extra vehicles in case of breakdowns...we had two different vehicles breakdown. That being said, they have the extra vehicles, they don't use them unless they need them and they always send out the vehicles full, from what we saw. I don't have experience with full vehicles at Kwando, but I did in Kenya and I can tell you I much prefer a private vehicle. Considering what you pay for your safari, the cost of the private vehicle is a drop in the bucket. If you can afford to go to Africa four or five times a year then you don't need a private vehicle...if you're someone like us who can only go every two or three years you want to have the best possible experience you can.

If you could afford Africa four or five times a year, then a private vehicle is probably not a hardship at all. It would have the impact of 2 cents.

Ok, so how much extra per day does it cost to have a private vehicle? What is the number? I have a feeling it is more than 2 cents. Kindly, back such statements with $$$ facts so I can decide for myself.
You will not find me returning to nor recommending a camp that seats 3 across.
regards - tom

So, I see in another thread that ms. atravelynn says that a private vehicle is an extra $275-$400 per day. This is significant, not what I would call 2 cents. Given a budget, for most of us unlucky travelers, this makes the difference between a 8 day safari or a 12 day safari. That is one way to look at it.
regards - tom

Tom,
I agree completely. How can anyone justify a three abreast seating arrangement for what these camps charge? One might as well figure in the cost of a private vehicle (at Kwando) and then decide whether they want to go other camps with more reasonable vehicle seating.
Chuck

atravelynn - for your forthcoming safari to Mala Mala are you having a private vehicle? Whether or not, how much extra does one cost at MM?
regards - tom

loru100, thank you for your confirmation about the vehicle numbers at Kwando.

I always wonder, why should I pay for a private vehicle when some "serious talk" with management can change the shared vehicle situation to my advantage?

For me it works.

Just got to reading this......haven't read it all, but, just want to say Kwando have had enormous success with their winning forumla regarding their choice of vehicle/configuration etc etc., this combined with a great guide/tracker is all that one needs on safari.....

I doubt they back away from the winning combination to focus on my favourite phrase-"Chocolate covered strawberries"!!!

I would be more than happy to drive in a full vehicle if every member is as nuts about the drive as i am!!! However- delays at lunch, sundowners and wanting to move onto the next sighting is the reason i spend on the private vehicle.....

As the saying goes...."just my 2 paise

Hari

The photographic Africa Geographic expedition with Mark Tennant is with a full vehicle of "PHOTOGRAPHERS"....so there is no reason why fodorites unwilling to spend on the extra vehicle will be unhappy with their Kwando experience.

If one wants a standard product from all operators for Botswana or elsewhere, why bother travelling? Sometimes, we are too set with standardization in our day to day lives that we expect standardization in every phase of our lives including our travels.....

Cheers,
Hari

I remember the times when WS were still using trackers, much better game drive experience than now. Apparently clients' preferences have changed (or WS' opinion about these preferences).

Tom,
No private vehicle for me in Mala Mala or in Phinda, the other place I am headed.

The only private vehicle I have ever paid for was at Duba Plains because I wanted to stay out all day with the hunting lions. Expensive as it was, I think it was worth it.

I have had the luxury of a private vehicle probably more than my share, just due to dumb luck, and I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

My comment about a private vehicle being the equivalent of 2 cents was in this context: IF you could afford 4-5 trips to Africa a year, THEN that several hundred dollars for a private vehicle is no more significant to you financially than spending 2 cents would be for the average person.

By the same token, the financial impact of renting out a whole safari camp for Bill Gates is the same as buying a new pair of khakis at Goodwill for me.

I personally don't view several hundred dollars a day as a 2 cent expenditure! At least not until I win the lottery. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

thanks Lynn, also on my win the lottery list along with fly business class.
regards - tom

I COMPLETELY agree with Hari...getting a private vehicle has more to do with the freedom to do what you want more so than sitting three across. There were days we left two hours before everyone else...we didn't bother to wait for high tea when we knew there were wild dogs or cheetahs to see! I don't know if you could have convinced an entire group of people to do the same thing. We stayed out in the rain, we skipped dinner some nights and had lunch in the bush...it was up to us and we didn't have to check with a "committee"! We paid $165 US per day (in the low season). Well worth it in my opinion...especially with the excellent guiding of Steve K!

Those of us that are a bit more gungho than average should team up and head out.

What would you say to Kwanda Camps in Sept of 2011? I'm only half joking. The other half is quite serious. That's plenty of time to plan and save up.

By the way, if I could pick my seat mates, I might enjoy sitting in the middle of a row of 3

atravelynn, good point with the seat mates. Btw, any plans to go back to Rod and Guz?

Nyama,

How nice of you to enquire. I am booked in early August of 2008 for Kutandala and have been for some time! No need to worry about a private vehicle or seating arrangements there. How about you?

atravelynn, I will be in Zambia this year, mainly exploring the Mupamadzi area in South Luangwa. For sure I will be in North Luangwa, too, but still no itinerary, I will do that June. I like the guiding of Ernst Jacobs at Mwaleshi, and I also like Rod and Guz very much (and of course the camp: the only bushcamp I know with a reading table in the loo). No decision yet - it's becoming more difficult with each safari - you meet too much nice hosts.

I'm on Lynn; middle seat or not (I hate middle seats)!

So, if I have understood correctly, most vehicles can only seat 6 passengers? That will be a problem for our group of 7! But, we are not big photographers so won't have a ton of equipment. I guess that this is something that the travel agent that I hope to find will help work out...

The Kwando game drive vehicles can seat a maximum of 7 clients. 3+3+1. The tracker can remain in his seat at the front of the vehicle.

At other operators with 2-row vehicles it depends on how they organize night drives. Some operators use an extra guide to operate the spot light. Here you have a maximum of 6 client seats.

Wilderness Safaris use 3-row vehicles in their own camps in Botswana (maximum 10 clients). But note: they don't own all Botswana camps featured in their brochure or on their website. Selinda & Zib use 2-row vehicles (7 clients), the same goes for Jack's & San (7 clients). I don't know the situation at Abu.

In Zambia I only know two operators with 3-row vehicles: Lion Camp and Norman Carr Safaris who use 2-row seaters but have an extra 3-row vehicle for groups in camp. Even WS use 2-row vehicles in Kafue.

nyama,
I'm sorry I just don't get your math (again). At Wilderness, three rows of two = six (6) not 10. Where do you keep coming up with these numbers? You don't work for Kwando do you?
Chuck

Safarimama, It's a plan. Step #1 is to label my binocs so we don't get ours mixed up. I recall we have the same kind. Maybe one or both of us will switch to IS by then.

In response to the question, "How much does a private vehicle at Mala Mala cost?" On another thread entitled Private Vehicle at Mala Mala, the figure mentioned was $500/day.

There might be an issue with the 7 people...the tracker needs the seat next to the guide when you come across predators...anytime we saw big cats or wild dogs or even hyenas, the tracker would move out of the seat at the front back into the vehicle...they mentioned something about the animals not associating the tracker in the front seat as part of the vehicle therefore he is fair game!

Yup, tracker gets into the vehicle at sensitive sightings, or when you need to drive very quick to get someplace in response to something.....

loru100, my trackers at Kwara, Mmoloki and Lesego, remained in their tracker seat, at least when we met leopards and hyenas. I can't say this for lions; when visiting the local pride we were not in "tracking mode", there were only 3 or 4 clients on board and the tracker sat beneath the driver. Beside this, the tracker is still safe in his front seat, he blends with the vehicle. This was in 2003 when there were still guns in the Kwando vehicles, so the situation might have changed.

Chuck, the WS vehicles are ten-seaters, with 3 seats per row. Usually WS don't use the middle seats. I even experienced 11 guests on board (4 clients in the back row), but that was on a way to a bush party and we had the Jouberts on board, so nobody complained.

No, I'm not working for Kwando, nor do I have any relationship with the travel trade. I just prefer the Kwando vehicles and their driver/tracker scheme for my photographic needs.

Maybe interesting for serious photographers: I had less problems using my Superclamp in a Kwando vehicle than in the WS vehicles.

These vehicles are a big deal for photographers for people like myself. One of the best ways to make sure you have an ample people to vehicle ratio is to either setup your own private mobile camp, or to completely rent out an entire lodge. This is usually very expensive, but photographers value the extra room.

I don't understand why it is so difficult for most of these lodges to add another vehicle to their fleet. Most lodges and camps that I know of simply don't have enough of them. For the prices that they are charging, they need to realize that sitting three people abreast is umcomfortable and unnecessary. Yes, photographers need more room, but it also has to do with control over how long you stay to watch the wildlife. If you did a questionnaire of 16 or 20 guests at a camp, I suspect you will end up with wildly different goals. A birder here, a big cat person there, etc etc. It all adds up to needing more vehicles, and separating guests with wildly different goals.

$.02

end rant.



Andy

Andy, it's business like everywhere else. Why should one invest into an extra vehicle plus one/two employees if clients accept the current situation? Apparently it works for Kwando.

WS removed the trackers, which I even find worse. Not only does this lessen the game drive experience, it also means less jobs for the local communities. Did anybody complain about this on this forum? I'm not aware of it.

When we saw Lions at Kwando the tracker got into the vehicle.

I believe MM charges $125 per empty seat out of six for a private vehicle. But again if there are four of you together and he camp is not full then you have a good chance of having a vehicle to yourselves.

I travelled as a group of 4 to Kwando camps and we were fortunate to have a vehicle dedicated to the 4 of us without paying a private cost. In the Kwando set up you are already getting more value vs. WS as you have a tracker with your guide. This is typically employing 3 more people in 'good' jobs at all times which I really appreciate and it is a big assistance to track predators and of course extra spotting. A tracker working the light on night drives is a huge improvement too. I would not enjoy sitting with 3 passengers across and would prefer WS vehicles in that situation.

I spoke with one of the Kwando high ups at the time about limiting the vehicles to groups of 4 and he said they were considering it but there would need to be a cost adjustment, since then some operational staff have moved on to another venture (not safari camp operation) so that idea could have died.

To me the two row vehicles limited to 4 guests would be the best situation and worth a small price premium but would be much less than a private vehicle which is beyond a lot our means without significantly shortening our trips. Conversely, I really wish WS would add trackers to their 3 row vehicles which I don't like as well as the URI but having the open middle seats is ideal.

BTW, I think Tom asked if URI was Toyota, Rover or what. URI is actually a Namibian made line of utility vehicles specifically made for the rigors of southern African (especially sandy) environments. For cruising at high speed to get to sightings they are outstanding. Shy of getting my Jeep Wrangler over there it's the best way to get around out there and once again great that the source is a point in the African economy.

So, it sounds like Kwando is better value for the money, and their vehicles can seat more people - good to know if you don't want many people along, or if you are a large group like us.

Nope, Wilderness for me.
Chuck

Is the guiding really better at Kwando, as you mentioned above, Chuck? Wouldn't that depend on your guide, or are they trained better. A seat in the middle with an outstanding guide would be preferable, IMHO, than 4 comfortably in a vehicle with a guide that's not as good.

Four trained eyes see more than two, especially if the driver also needs to keep the vehicle on track and entertain the clients.

Well, that doesn't mean that WS game drives are bad, and I guess you don't need a tracker at all in areas such as Mombo.

A tracker is more important if you're after small things, or tracking down a leopard.

I'm following this thread with great interest not only about the seat configurations but also about the lack of trackers at WS camps.

Is not having a tracker (in Southern Africa) more common than having one, generally speaking?

We stayed at CCAfrica camps in SA last September, where I appreciated the added value of a tracker. it was our first safari and I just assumed it was the norm.

CW

CW, in Botswana Kwando is the only remaining operator with trackers.

In Zambia most operators use a tracker for late afternoon and night drives who operates the spot light (often it's a ZAWA scout). They don't use a tracker during morning drives.

I can't say much about the situation in Nam and SA.

Thanks Nyama. That's interesting and certainly something to consider.

i wonder if the Botswana CCAfrica camps use trackers as they do in South Africa. Something to check on when making future plans.

CW

Dececption Valley Lodge (in Botswana) uses bushmen as trackers on their game drives as well -- they are independently owned.

I can only imagine that WS did it to save money as it is certainly better for clients to have trackers and for the locals to have jobs.

Nowadays Kwando use this feature as an unique sales point in their marketing, so I guess CC Africa don't use trackers in BW. But I havn't been at Nxabega and Sandibe so far. Anyone who can confirm this?

PredatorBiologist, a good piece of information, thank you.

WS wouldn't be such successful, if they don't know how to operate a business. And that also means cutting jobs.

Momliz,
Many of our friends have used Wilderness and ALL have had good driver guides. None has had a bad experience. Perhaps I'm in the minority here but I can't imagine any serious photographer sitting in the middle seat or even willing (if they could afford it) to go out on a drive loaded as the Kwando vehicles may sometimes be. For those happy with that sort of arrangement that's fine but I couldn't even handle my lenses and bodies with that three seat abreast configuration, no matter which seat I was in. Guess I'm not agile enough. Hey Nyama, why not use a minibus at Kwando ? Maybe put a tracker on the back as well

Chuck, thank you, you're just confirming my thoughts about WS. They reduced operation costs, and clients are still happy. Why should they change this?

When I was at Nxabega in Oct 2005 CC Africa had trackers.

Tanky, thank you, another valuable piece of information. I guess I should have a closer look at Kwando's marketing brochure. Maybe it's something for the "Eco-travel in South or East Africa? Can I trust what the tour companies and lodges say?" thread.

Yes Sandibe had a tracker in 2004, dont know about now.

napamatt, that puts Sandibe on my destination list. Thank you.

Anybody who knows the situation at Pom Pom?

Nyama-

"Andy, it's business like everywhere else. Why should one invest into an extra vehicle plus one/two employees if clients accept the current situation? Apparently it works for Kwando."

That is the point. Most people, including myself, would pay the extra cost to have fewer people in the vehicle. Riding 3 people wide isn't enjoyable, and the safari experience can be greatly enhanced by increasing the cost a little bit more. Heck, most southern African safaris are pricy to begin with. At least give people the choice. I would love to see somebody rent out extra vehicles from a central location to camps that need them, as overflow vehicles.

Eureka Andy! Your idea should be posted under the thread "If you could start a business or work in Africa"...

Now, if I can just get Jeep to transfer me over there and supply the vehicles I will take on this task.

PS..I still want to buy your lion cub photograph.

Hi Andy,

While your idea about having extra vehiciles sounds good, in reality it's not really possible. A safari operator leasing a CHA (or concession) in Bots must adhere to strict guidelines designating the use of the leased land.

This means that a particular concession may be allocated 20 beds, 7 vehicles and 45 kilometres of game drive roads.

This is the reason that camps in Bots typically only have one private vehicle available at any time. Of course, everything is negotiable when signing a lease agreement, but once signed, there are only so many vehicles allowed to be driving at any one time within a concession.

James

"Eureka Andy! Your idea should be posted under the thread "If you could start a business or work in Africa".

He already has, leading photo safaris!

Apologies if I've missed seeing somebody else pick this up, but Selinda/Zib vehicles no longer have two rows of three.

They now have two rows of two plus a back row of three. Capacity eight, if you count the front passenger seat next to the guide (that's my favourite seat), and if the vehicle is full, only one person has to suffer the middle seat.

I've never had the misfortune to be in a full vehicle at Selinda or Kwando, so don't mind the three-seat rows...they give me more room to spread out with camera gear if I'm not lucky enough to have the front passenger seat. To digress a little, on some night drives, I've stood up in the passenger seat and held the spotlight for the guide. Having to divide his concentration between driving in the dark and holding the light compromises the guide's spotting skills, so, as long as the helper knows how to use a spotlight in the bush, the extra elevation is a great advantage.

My view is that the main objective of operators is to make money out of us. Although most safari-goers tote a camera, serious photographers are a tiny minority and quite a few of them would hire a private vehicle. So why would the operators invest in more vehicles than they think they can get away with? Their choice is simple: more vehicles, most of which would stand idle for much of the year; or different seating configurations. You can see the choice Selinda/Zib has taken...one more seat and a sensible change in configuration. They have enough qualified guides in reserve (their camp managers are usually fully qualified) to drive extra vehicles if needed, but they chose not to go that way.

John

Good news John!

I didn't see James's explanation about vehicle allowances for concessions before posting my view. Thanks for that, James...really, you should post more frequently , though that's no excuse for my skimming over the latter parts of the thread. Bad practice, skimming the surface!

John

"Eureka Andy! Your idea should be posted under the thread "If you could start a business or work in Africa".

"He already has, leading photo safaris!"

You got that right! I am very fortunate to have my passion and my profession occur in a place that I love so very much.

Update/correction:
I made a wrong statement in one of my posts regarding what kind of vehicles WS are using in Kafue. Yesterday I had a look at my Kafue photos and found out that WS are also using 3-row vehicles in Kafue. Since I also saw 2-row WS vehicles in the area my guess is that they use Ed Smythe's old 2-row vehicles at Busanga Bush Camp while they are using 3-row vehicles at new Kapinga and Shumba camps.

Having been away from my pc for a week I just came across this thread. It's been very informative since we are heading out on our first trip to S.Africa in June; I inquired with CCA to hire a private vehicle to surprise my partner - I was quoted 7500Zar for a day; way beyond my budget. This is in one of the private reserves CCa runs in Sabi Sands area - Has anyone run across these prices while on safari in the kruger/sabi area? Thanks for any info that may get me a better price! D/

ex tort ion...
Think about it 2 x 3 hour game drives in a day.
maximum speed 30 Km's an hour or about 20 miles an hour. So maximum of 120 miles travelled in the day.... fuel efficiency of the vehicle, probably 8 miles to the gallon, which costs about $4.50 so maybe 15 gallons in the day, which is highly unlikely, more like 5 from past experience, but for arguments sake....$ 67 worth of gas in the day. What happened to the other $1 120 odd dollars left over...oh I know that was to pay the ranger and tracker, but hold on they only cost about ZAR 4000 a month, which is $643.... x 2 so I guess that by hiring the vehicle for the day, you just paid the salary for the safari team for the month and they even profited from it....Madness. But its you who wants the privacy of the private vehicle....go for it.

7500ZAR, SA Rand? That's a bit over $1,000USD. Offer them half that. And even at that it sounds high.
regards - tom

Mala Mala runs $250 for each empty seat out of 6. So 2 of you would pay $1000. I wouldn't. I figure if I was ever with someone really obnoxious I would complain and get moved. Clearly at a larger property it is easier to get this type of issue resolved.
If you are going to Kirkman's, see if you can get Giles as your ranger, he's very enthusiastic and an awful time keeper, if he says your twenty minutes from something, assume 40!

Thanks all; I think we will take our chances with the standard and save the bucks for the NEXT safari - as I understand the First one is just the start of a new obsession! I suppose since I was asking about the private vehicle they threw a number out to see if I was a big enough sucker. D.

Good decision Dana..

It's taken me days to read through this plethora of info and I have to say as I am off to Kwando Lagoon in November 2007, I wanted to get to the bottom of it. Here's my reply from Kwando themselves with regard to what and why they use the URI set up they have - enjoy! :

Thank-you for your mail and for letting us know of your concern regarding our vehicles.

It is usual and economic in Botswana camps to put 6 guests on a game drive vehicle. There are two ways of doing this. The first is a vehicle with 3 rows of seats allowing each person to get a so called window seat. The second is a vehicle with 2 rows of seats with 3 guests on each. There are pros and cons with each option.

Kwando chose the second option as the class of guiding is important to them. Having two rows of seats means that everyone is in close contact with the guide and tracker and communication is easy. The guides have been trained to position the vehicles so that all six guests have good viewing. The vehicle is usually also moved at least once so that each person's view changes during one sighting.

URI's (vehicle type) were chosen as they are more spacious than landrovers and landcruisers thus allowing more space for legs and equipment. We have made a real effort in spacing the seats so that no-one is squashed. It is for this reason that each seat is an individual bucket seat rather than a bench seat.

Not putting a third row on the vehicle that overhangs the back limits the amount of dust that guests are covered with.

We chose these vehicles for all the above reasons and remain convinced that this is the right choice.

We are aware that some guests are specifically photographers who need much more space and manuverability in a vehicle which is why we offer the option of a private vehicle and guide at an additional cost.

I hope I have answered your questions and set your mind at rest.

Karin Robertson-Bullock
Reservations Manager

Tel no: +267 686 1449
Fax no: +267 686 1457

I still do NOT want to be the middle "guest" in a seat of three. Photography or not. And if that means I have to have my own vehicle then I'll have to take that additional cost into consideration when choosing camps. BTW, instead of 2 seats of 3 persons, I would prefer 3 seats of 2 persons. IF they have to stuff 6 people in it.
regards - tom

I'm absolutely with you, Tom.

Camera or no camera, I would NOT NOT NOT want to be seated in the centre of a row of 3. No way!

I don't particularly love the third row in Wilderness Safaris vehicles either, partly because it can be harder to hear the guide (though if they turn the engine off it's not a big issue) and partly because I don't like shooting animals from a height - it's nicer to be lower. BUT I'd MUCH rather be in this row, but have a "window" seat than be in row 1 or 2 stuck in centre!

So for me, when comparing prices between the two companies, I'd have to compare costs adding in a private vehicle for Kwando with costs when not doing that for WS.

And, even if I were in the "window" seat but sitting 3 to a row I wouldn't be too happy. That extra empty middle seat in WS vehicles makes it very easy to keep my camera gear close to hand.

Excuse me as I have come to the discussion a bit late. I am in complete agreement with Tom (Carry999), Andy Biggs and Safarichuck. Thrree people abreast is just ridiculous, considering the already high costs of Botswana. If I were to choose Kwando, I would feel compelled to rent a private vehicle. Actually I'm in the process of finalizing my next Bots safari and this thread has convinced me to use Wilderness. Kwando seems to get an awful lot of mileage from their supposedly superior guiding; I can't speak to that but I can say that Wilderness does have fantastic guides and I couldn't imagine a better experience. Forcing people to hire a private vehicle (photographers) is a win win situation for the Kwando group. There is simply no way a serious amateur would be happ in either the middle seat or side seat with someone placed in the middle seat. In my humble opinion Ms Karin Robertson-Bollock is blowing smoke. Re-read Toms, Chucks, and Andy's posts again if you are serious amateurs and see if you don't agree.

we will be a group of 7 - how could we manage that? not huge photographers, so that isn't an issue, and there are two kids, so they don't take up much room. How do they handle larger groups? Or are the drives portioned out by room, so if you have three rooms you get three drives/drivers?

Momliz, if you were at a Wilderness Safaris camp they'd simply put your group in one vehicle.

Whilst their normal policy is no more than 6 in a vehicle, they do, of course, seat up to 9 (or 10 with someone in the seat next to the driver). And parties travelling together usually mind less about one person having that middle seat.

I don't know how Kwando would manage this.

Thank God, we all have our own preferences. I've been in shared vehicles with both WS and Kwando, and I prefer the Kwando game drives. I'm travelling with 25 kgs of photo equipment and had no problems using my big white ones in a Kwando vehicle. Don't know if this qualifies or disqualifies me as a "serious amateur".

nyama - were you seated in a row of three people?
regards - tom

If you were seated three abreast you are most certainly disqualified My humble opinion.

Tom, yes, also in a row with three people. In all cases when I experienced a full safari vehicle my fellow travellers agreed that the people with "serious" equipment got a site seat. (There might be a problem if you have more than four enthusiastic photographers on board, but I never got even near to such a situation.) I don't care if someone is sitting on the middle seat beneath me, because I'm used to have my equipment on the floor - according to Murphy's rule: if things might fall then they certainly will. If you've ever experienced how a vehicle drives into a hidden warthog hole then you know what I'm talking about.

For those of you that are wondering what this banter is all about, the "Big White Ones" referred to by nyama are Canon L series telephoto lenes. Similar Nikon lenses are black. As far as weather owning an expensive lens qualifies one as serious or not I'm afraid I must reserve judgement.

Ok, you've "been there", I haven't. But if I'm on let's say the far left and the subject is on the right side of the vehicle then I have to dodge around two people to shoot. And of course the one in the middle is dodging around the one to their right. Hard for me to imagine.

I agree with Silverback. And, not necessarily you, but I just have to toss this out for general consumption . (Silverback might like it). There is an old saying that goes: photographers that are concerned with equipment are amateurs, photographers that are concerned with cost are professionals, and photographers that are concerned with light are photographers.

regards - tom

I must also reserve judgement as to "whether" owning an expensive lens qualifies one as serious or not. What I can however tell you is that owning expensive lenses does nothing to improve ones spelling.

Nyama,

That makes it sound like it's best to make sure you have a big lens if going to Kwando camps if those people get the preferred seating (outside). It just seems to me that if you are in a shared vehicle, and someone has to sit in the middle, it's only polite to alternate seats, so that everyone has to sit in the middle sometimes. Unless your spouse or partner is the one with the big lens and you are always willing to take the middle seat next to him or her.

It was my impression from reading a lot of trip reports that many of the people on this board get a private vehicle at Kwando camps (private meaning for themselves or their party), and in that case, it seems like their experience with Kwando game drives is generally outstanding.

Tom, I do like it. The first two hours after sunrise and the last two hours of daylight are magic. Other than tripods and related tools (ballheads, Wimberley Sidekick, clamps) most serious amateurs don't spend a lot of time discussing lenses and camera bodies. I find that for the most part there is good general agreement about what, for example a good arsenal of wildlife lenses include. They range in price from expensive to very expensive but none will take the place of good late day and late afternoon sun. I have seen some terrible stuff from big white lenses and people that think simply owning them gives them quality images. Likewise, Ihave seen wonderful stuff from less expensive kits. Another consideration is that of shooting angle from a safari vehicle. That goes for any vehicle, be it in Tanzania (closed) or Botswana (open vehicles). One is very much more limited to changing the angle of the shot when in a three (3) abreast shooting situation. I had originally thought of going to Kwando for my next safari but as theis thread progressed I changed my mind and have now booked with Wilderness. Thanks Kiboko

Tom, it all depends how you and your fellow travellers behave on board. Fortunately I shared all my game drives with people who had an eye for the photographers and tried not being "in the way". The same goes for me - if the action is on my site, I always try to give the other people in my row the same opportunities for a good shot. Of course I enjoy game drives where only four (or less) people are in the vehicle. My preference for Kwando game drives is simply based on the driver/tracker experience. If WS hadn't dropped their trackers, I certainly would prefer the WS seat layout.

brandywine, you are right, it's certainly no disadvantage if you have big equipment. Maybe I'm a lucky person, but during all my safaris in Botswana and Zambia I experienced only less than 1/4 of my game drives in full (or nearly full) vehicles. I can't count the drives where I was the only client, or shared the vehicle with 1-2 other clients - all during high season. So from my experience, it doesn't make much sense to hire a private vehicle if the shared vehicle will work for me in most cases. Certainly I have to say Thank You to all those travellers with a private vehicle because their decision lessened the situation on the shared vehicles.

Silverback, you took more words right out of my mouth.
And here's one more: Lighting isn't the only thing, it is everything.
Looks like you started posting here in April, welcome aboard, we have a good time, share a lot and learn a lot. Here's a few of my photos from the two safaris I've been on- http://tomgraham.smugmug.com/
Most are for information, only about a dozen are worth bragging about/hanging on the wall.

regards - tom
ps - all of my lenses are black (Nikon)

That comment about serious and amateur photographers is great, Tom.

Tom,
Those images from MalaMala are wonderful. They certainly earn bragging rights, bigtime. I have in fact included MalaMala in our 2008 itinerary. Now I'm even more excited.

Silverback, in case you haven't picked up on it yet, Mala is a favorite camp around here. I will be there for my third time in Sept this year. But I am truly a "Mala Mala amateur" compared with some here. 2008, 2008??? How can you wait until 2008????
regards - tom

Tom,
I have a Bots safari and another to Tanzania before then. We are really addicted. I wish we had arranged MalaMala for this year but now we have something else to look forward to.

well.........i for one am VERY excieted to be going on safari in just about three weeks time!!!

Rgds,
Hari

PS: i agree that the URI is one of the more roomy game drive vehilces around. Adequate floor space for leg room and to hold equipement. While, i also like Land rovers that some SSGR places have.......i dont like the land cruisers at all!!!

One more thing.....i think the third row in any vehicle is awfully uncomfortable where you feel every single bump!!! Those with back problems, that isnt a great place to be sitting......also, is higher up so not the best position for photo ops.

I also think, the URI is lower to the ground for some reason and i love that aspect...

The tracker thing....i have at times been on a wild goose chase where we were tracking something for around three hours or so on quite a few ocassions. The guide and trackers are relentless and won't give up until they find the animals. They take it up as a challenge of sorts!!!

I get the private vehicle because, i'm not sure everyone in the full vehicle will be interested in tracking the animals for an extended period of time. I can remember atleast one ocassion where, we found the pride of lions after extensive tracking on a wildebeest kill and radioed the other vehicles to come have a look.......our car had to leave in a half hour or so as i was leaving camp that day!!! The funny thing about this particular episode is- the lions spent the night in camp, but, went to find themselves breakfast about an hour from camp.....so made the tracking more difficult.

Similar episodes with cheetah and wild dog....

Any updates to this old thread from 2007 from anyone who has recently stayed at Kwando and Wilderness camps in the Okavango. I will be going to Kwara camp (Kwando) and Duba Plains (Wilderness) in a few months and am interested to hear whether the vehicles they are using have changed and if the tracker is still not provided by WS.
Fortunately we have booked private vehicles at both camps as we like to stay out all day and have a lot of photographic equipment.

AKR1, you will have the Landcruisers at Kwara. They aren't using the middle seat anymore, which isn't the point here, since you will have a private vehicle ....... Was at Kwando in August. Had some great wild dog sightings at Lagoon, as always is the case there.....

Hari,

Do the Kwara vehicles have three rows? Also, I understand they have both a tracker and a guide unlike Wilderness who does not have a tracker. Is this still accurate?