Kings Camp or Mala Mala?

Hi Leslie

I am doing Mashatu Main Camp, Pafuri and MalaMala Main Camp at the end of the year. I am a long time fan of MalaMala and have just gone to that one camp, twice a year for a few years. Then I was told to give Mashatu a chance, and now that I have been there once and loved it, that will be included in my trips. Pafuri I have not been to, but as I am driving the Mashatu to MalaMala leg, I needed a break in the trip, mainly due to chronic back issues. This was suggested to me by those in the know, also by a favourable report by NapaMatt.

I am not sure of the position of Kings Camp or the area available to the rangers, but I do know that MM has a large area with the Sand River running through most of the property from north to south and this does seem to make a difference in gameviewing especially during those drier months.

From what I am told about Pafuri, I think I would be inclined to add an extra night to both Mashatu and MalaMala and be at Pafuri for two nights. I would do this as I am gameviewing obsessive, and while I know I will enjoy Pafuri for two nights, I think that may be my limit.

Kind regards

Kaye

Kaye: My daughter and I will also be at MM Main Camp the end of the year, my first time and I am very excited. I have seen some Kaye N photos on the MM website, if they are yours I just want to say that you have some great shots. I am envious of your twice a year visits. Maybe we will see you there! I have heard the same about Pafuri...great for birders but not the large predators, so FWIW I would choose the extra at MM as well.

Regards, Pat

Thank-you Pat. I do love MM! This is the first year for a long time that I have not done a mid-year trip and I will have to wait until 11 December to be on my way. I will have a 17 year old niece with and luckily she loves it! Not as much as me, but then few would!

I wish us both fabulous gameviewing and no huge downpours when I am taking photos!

Kind regards

Kaye

I spent a couple of nights at Kings Camp in April and I must say it was much better then expected.

At each game drive we had leopard sightings which by far was not expected because Sabi Sands is very well known for leopard sightings and Kings is in Timbavati, 1 1/2 hours drive north of SS.
Game drives are more or less the same - safari routine as Sabi Sands without serving high tea which was actually quite good as they serve lunch at around 03.00pm - breafast was at around 1..00am after the morning drive.

Kings Camp was very pleasant: Very large chalets with a kind of Edwardian feel, nice terrace looking out into the savannah. Your TA should insist on getting one of the recently (some are still in the process of being refurbished) refurbished chalets for you.

I don't like the way MM does execute the game drives having the tracker in the back of the vehicle. Furthermore I don't like the way MM treats its personnel especially trying to prevent guides and trackers to socialise after work.

Furthermore I don't like the greediness which is clearly shown by charging for water which comes from the own plant.

Regarding Pafuri:
If you are not K E E N on birding in particular the 4 night stay might be a bit looooong because of the absence of predetors and other game.

Happy Planning!

SV

Thanks Kaye & SV. Sounds like shortening the Pafuri stay from 4 to 3 and maybe adding a day at Kings or MM is a good idea. Thanks for the heads up on the refurb at Kings.

Kings Camp or MalaMala
I’ve been to each three times totaling 18 nights at KC and 14 nights at MM.
Location – both are in un-fenced private reserves bordering Kruger. KC is in the Timbavati Private Reserve, MM in the Sabi Sand Private Reserve. The Timbavati is about 10 miles north of Sabi Sand. The distance between these actual camps is maybe 40 miles. To drive from one camp to the other (as far as I know) you have to exit the reserve back onto a SA highway then enter back into the other reserve, probably around 90 miles total drive. Or you can fly between reserves, Federal Air (Fedair) does now, and so does Genair charter. Cost is about $150.

Cost – MM (Main Camp) is $575 pppn. KC is (May-Sep) $437 pppn (at Rand of 8:1 USD) KC rate goes up to $525 Oct-Apr. However if you stay at KC 5 nights you pay for only 4, so the $437 rate drops down to $350 over 5 nights. Great deal. At MM you pay for soft drinks, beer, wine, liquor. At KC it is included. At MM laundry service is included, at KC laundry service is extra.

Huts/Bungalows – The MM bungalow (Main Camp) is roomy, attractive, comfortable with the traditional peak/pointed high hut ceiling. There are two bath areas one each side of the room. Nice his/hers for the early morning rush. . The KC bungalows are more attractive, larger, nicely decorated in British Colonial with one large bath/shower area. Both have their own room heating and AC units. I prefer the KC bungalows. Swimming pool, spa, internet – I don’t use those much but appear to be the same.

Meals/food - Again, MM charges for drinks, KC does not. Meals at both are good but KC are more gourmet, tastier, and I prefer KC. At both camps you start the day with tea/coffee/juice and cakes. Breakfast is after the morning game drive, maybe 9:30am. Lunch is around 2pm. Afternoon tea before the afternoon game drive. Sundowner break for drinks on the drive. And dinner around 8pm.

Camp staff- The camp staff at MM is good, helpful, but not real warm friendly. The camp staff at KC is most warm friendly and happy to do anything for you with a smile. KC staff is great thanks largely to the camp manager who sets this atmosphere for the camp.

Game drives – The Best Part.
Tough comparison. MM is its own large property with the Sand River flowing year round. KC is a much smaller property sharing traversing rights with other adjacent camps. But the number of vehicles at a big sighting at both KC and MM is controlled so its never a crowd. MM is known for its leopards and it is not unusual to see 3-4 different leopards on a game drive. I’ve also seen at least one leopard on most every game drive at KC. Lions, the Eyrefield pride at MM is hard to beat but you will see lions on most every drive at KC. Elephants, KC more, better.. Buffalo, better at KC. Rhino, same both. Giraffe, zebra, antelope, birds, same both. I’ve had great game drives and so-so drives at both. On each visit with both camps I have seen the big 5. Games drives are always a surprise and that is what makes them so enjoyable. The nod perhaps goes slightly to MM for game drives.
Rangers – both camps have both excellent rangers and just good rangers. If your into photography (like I am) the ranger (and you) is the most important factor in getting good photos. Really try to get a ranger that takes photos themselves.
Trackers – MM puts the tracker on the back of the vehicle while KC seats the tracker on the left front fender. I do not like the tracker on the front fender, he is in the way of sightings many times especially for video.

Summary – I feel KC is the better value, 60% of the cost of MM. Everything else added up is close to being equal, too close for me to call.


regards - tom

Hi Leslie

Just to add a couple of things that SV seems mistaken about. MM rangers not allowed to socialise after gameviewing? I don't know which camp SV stayed at, but the rangers join you for every meal and for drinks before the evening meal, so that piece of information is incorrect.

You do not need to pay for water - I drink non-bottled water and always have with no trouble. If you choose bottled water then you do need to pay, as that costs money to produce and I am not sure of the point of where it is produced. There is bottled water in the room and on gamedrives and there is no charge for that, so that seems a very petty issue to me.

I wasn't aware that Kings was in the Timbavati. I stayed in two camps in 2002, so admittedly some time ago, and I was very aware of it being fenced and animals had to be introduced, for example, when I was there it was giraffe as one pride on lions kept killing them. The properties in the Timbavati were fairly small and when I was there, there was talk of removing some of the fencing to make the are into one larger reserve, I am not sure if that ever happened. They did not have the natural movement of animals which the Sabi Sands does since the fence between them and Kruger was removed.

Tom makes some interesting points and the main one for me is the position of the tracker and I agree with him 100%, the tracker on the front is frequently in my road for my photos, so I definitely prefer him out of my vision.

Kind regards

Kaye

No camp I have stayed at except for Djuma Vuyutela charges for bottled water and that is a lot of camps. I think this is a basic and there should be no charge.

I find that a tracker in the back seat to be like a 3rd arm, it may be nice, but normally its useless. In order to see best, you need to be up front, in the way or not, otherwise why bother to have a tracker. Just let the ranger do the work, which brings me to my last comment.

Mala Mala is not known for treating employees well. It is well known in the Sabi Sands area about employee dissatisfaction. Currently the trackers are on a work stoppage (at least as of May). So the rangers are working without trackers which kind of goes to my previous comment, why have a tracker in the back seat. Personally I like the back seat and I do not want the tracker with me. He will be more in my way there than in the front.

For me, until Mala Mala gets a better reputation about their treatment of employees, I have no plans to travel there even if it was $5 per night. I want to be where there are happy employees.

Mike

I am not going to get into a verbal battle over the water, as this issue has been discussed previously and frankly, it sounds as petty now as it did the first, second, third time etc etc.

I will make a statement regarding facts of a reserve, but things like the room, service and food are your opinions, so I would not argue those but I think you need to have stayed in a place before offering such an opinion!

Kind regards

Kaye

I agree, it is petty of a camp to charge for water or soft drinks.

regards - tom

Tom, Tom, Tom!

Let it go - you will be a better man for it!

I am always being told I have little to do with my time, so it is nice to see someone who has less to do with his time. a smiley face would go here if I could find the sheet that I printed from atravelynn's tip!

Kind regards

Kaye

Hi Tom

Just wondering what time zone who are in as the time shown is 12.12am?

Where I am is 2.12pm Monday.

Kind regards

Kaye

Thanks Kaye, finally letting go of it will complete my manly perfection . And yes, I have more time than money otherwise I'd be in Afreekaa!!!

Smiley face is easy to remember : and - and ) together no spaces, it looks smiley, eyes :, nose -, mouth ), turned sideways.

Well, the time shown on the forum(s) is Eastern time USA (think New York). So even though I'm in beautiful southern sunny California my postings (and yours) get stamped with Eastern time USA. But since I may be on the forum at 2am my time it is difficult to know what I'm doing (or why!!). You are now at 2:12pm Monday??? You must -not- be in the known civilized world!!! (New York City according to New Yorkers).

and Kind regards - tom

Hi Tom

You are correct - I am not in the known civilized world of New York City! I live in Australia on the east coast in beautiful Brisbane. Not at all civilized!

Was it at King's Camp, that a ranger found the need to shoot a leopard in fairly recent time?

Kind regards

Kaye

To support SpassVogel I experienced a very upleasant management-staff atmosphere on my one visit there. In this case it seemed to be between the 'managers' and the guides. The guides seemed to be scared of saying the wrong things at meal times if a manger was on at the table...whether it was just my guide I couldn't say.

I think SV's observation is backed up by the facts - the very high turn over of guides leading to some very young and inexperienced ones (didn't they sack their head ranger Rob Scott because he went to visit a friend at a neighbouring camp?) suggests low morale in that quarter, the 'strike' which has gone on now for nearly six months and the general opinion of MM within the rest of Sabi Sands.

Kaye, yes a leopard was shot but I don't know by whom. Kings Camp report says the ranger was from another camp. http://kingscamp.com/blog/index.php?itemid=194
I had seen that nice dominant male on every visit at KC, he was very accepting of vehicles and guests. He was also being filmed during the fall of 2008 for a TV program but I've not seen anything about it yet.

regards - tom
ps - nice smiley !!!!

The turn over of rangers at MM has always surprised me. The rangers are typically college educated in biology, zoology, environmental, etc, and put a lot of effort in learning the MM territory and animals. Then after typically two years they move on to some other totally unrelated work!!! At least that's what I've heard. Somebody (Kaye?, napamatt?) correct me if badly wrong.

While at other camps, like KC, they stay as rangers much longer, I think. At least I've seen the same excellent KC rangers for the last three years!!!

regards - tom

Regarding your trip in October 2010. Mashatu and Pafuri will both be great. They both offer great game in more of a wilder and remote environment than the Timbavati and Sabi Sands. The predator viewing at Mashatu is excellent. I believe that the lion population is a bit down at the moment, but that will surely be a temporary thing. You stand a great chance of seeing leopard and also wild dog there. I have had some great cheetah sightings there too as well as excellent sightings of some things which you won't see in southern Kruger such as eland. As far as Pafuri goes, I have been fortunate to visit Pafuri Camp a couple of times. I first visited in 2005 shortly after the camp opened and can confirm that the game was extremeley scarce at that time. The guides used to focus on birds then as there was very little game to be seen. Hardly an animal in fact! Having been back since then I have seen a huge increase in the game viewing, particularly in the dry season (May-November). The general game densities are as good, if not better than further south in the park. I have also had great sightings of lion and leopard and can confirm that the Luvuvhu River supports a high density of leopard. The birding remains good, but certainly not the only reason to visit Pafuri anymore.

As far as King's Camp and Mala Mala go. They both offer superb opportunities to view the more high profile species. A lot will depend on your preference regarding guides, intimacy of camp etc. as per the info in the above threads. To confirm, the leopard that was shot in the Timbavati was not shot at King's Camp.

Hi Graeme2

Do you know where the ranger was from that shot the leopard? I am curious for a few reasons.

On the rangers staying about 2 years or so - that does seem around the time they stay before they move on. That seems to be the movement in a lot of camps where I have stayed - I may have them the next year, but gone by the next! That has happened at Singita, Lion Sands and Londolozi. In a way it is annoying and in another way, you do get to meet different rangers, although you always have your favourites!

As to all those who have not had a good ranger experience at MM, that has never been my experience and as most would know, I have been there a lot over the last 8 years and have experienced a lot of rangers, and I have always had a really good experience with MalaMala rangers - always! Not so with fellow guests, but that is another subject! A knowledgeable and entertaining ranger is a must when I spend so much time with them - a dreadful ranger does make a dreadful gameviewing experience, and while I have had that experience, it was not at MalaMala.

But I prefer to think about the good ones and not go on and on about the negative experiences!

Kind regards

Kaye

I just finished my 4th trip to Lion Sands in 5 years. I see the same rangers, same staff, same management (many of them have been promoted). Yes, they have had rangers leave as can be expected, however when I see the same people after 5 years, it says a lot about the management and it says the staff is happy there. Happy staff makes me happy and want to return.

Mike

Great replies - thank you so much for your input.

I'm leaning towards KC at this point - hoping the stay 5 pay 4 deal will be available for Oct 2010. I see that on their website but only through 2009 - do you see it for 2010 somewhere, Tom?

I'm sure you can't go wrong with either but it's nice to get a feel for what makes a difference between the two to help me decide.

No, don't see any KC rates yet for 2010. They have had this deal (and others) for at least the last two years. I do the stay 8 pay for 6

Suggest you email KC manager Warren at email given on KC site - warren@kingscamp.com
Warren is a prince of a fellow, and great ranger.

regards - tom

I don't know anything about KC but stayed at MM in 2000 with my family and thought it was wonderful!

Tom,

Your comment on how well educated the rangers at MM is I think one of the reasons they have such a high turn over - most of them seem to be doing it as a gap year thing. Taht's why so of them are so young and inexperienced...is there an age limit on guides at MM as there is elsewhere? they are also worked far harder than at other lodges - they collect you, take you to your room, get drinks etc...no wonder most of them call it a day within 18 months.

All lodges have some turnover of guides but it's good sign if guides are still there (or with the same company) 5-10 years after you first visit. Every camp I've ever been to has of characters like this including the three camps Kaye mentions, apart from MM. Have any of the MM guides been there longer than two years? (I know Gordon had just started there in 2007 so he may just have made it). Rob Scott must have been there nearly two years before his alleged sacking.

My guide was okay at MM and my stop there wasn't soured by him...rather it was the atmosphere a couple of the managers projected. What I've heard since then has confirmed my initial observation - management practice at MM is 15-20 years out of date and accounts for their high staff turnover and poor management-staff relationships.

Of the three rangers I've had at MM all were top notch. And they do work so constantly that I feel for them. They are with you at -every- meal. At other camps, like KC, they join you only for dinner and that's fine with me.

I heard couple years ago from my ranger who was indeed Rob Scott that two of my previous MM rangers left MM and were then working in London in the financial business!!

regards - tom
ps - here's photo of Rob Scott, myself and tracker Inyati and a leopard. I had the vehicle to myself that day . http://tinyurl.com/kntbxj

I think MM is quite aware of the guide turnover and I think that's what the owners want. The MM rangers are usually as excited as the guests are at a sighting. The ranger trainees go through extensive training before they are allowed to take out guests so they aren't guiding on their first day on the job. I think the MM trackers are the mainstays. I am not a MM expert so I could be completely wrong but that's what I've observed. I haven't been to too many different camps but I can think of two guides that I've had that were in the same place forever and they seemed pretty bored and blase about the whole thing. Not very good. I'm not implying that all long time guides are like that because I've had both kinds.

And my opinion about the rear tracking is that those guys are amazing. It's not just the tracking but spotting. You can only track what has walked across or near the road but sitting up high in the back allows them a very good view and their spotting skills are amazing. In regards to tracking it's pretty impossible to know what they don't see but I have definitely seen the driver pull off the road when there are lion or leopard prints walking in or across the road. I don't know how they see them from the driver's seat but they do. It's pretty cool. Especially when they see the tracks on the road, follow them for awhile and then park the vehicle and track on foot when the tracks veer off the road.

sundowner - I agree 100% both your points. And I think the best spotter/tracker at any camp is the two-way radio. But I really hate when it is turned up and hearing all the chatter. Ah, another plus for MM, the rangers were headsets. And KC rangers keep radio chatter well under control. I've also heard that MM and KC send out trackers very early to try and find sightings before guests start out.

regards - tom
ps - now someone is going to say that because MM rangers wear headset they can't hear their tracker calling!!!

Tom, I just had to write and say that I'm enjoying your comments about the two camps. I appreciate your point of view very much. But what I really want to know....

After looking at your photos from the link above, I was wondering which lens you have on your camera more - the 70-300 or the 18-200? I have the 18-200 and the 80-400, but only took the 80-400 on my last safari (along with a wide angle) and wished I had my 18-200vr.

Leslie, if you do decide on King's Camp instead of Mala Mala, we'll have some fun times exchanging info when we get back since I think we're planning to be in South Africa/Botswana at about the same time.

Water - I read somewhere that MM processes its own water and that the water from the tap is safe to drink. Is that correct? I'll never forget stopping at Ndutu last year and being offered ice tea...with ICE...I took a little sip but then remembered I shouldn't be drinking it. Then when I got to the room I found out that they have safe water to drink. Boy, I would have downed that entire glass of ice tea in a second if I knew that!

Good luck with your plans Leslie - I look forward to seeing what you decide.

Carrie

Carrie -
I believe all tap water in SA is safe to drink.

Thanks for your thanks. I'm happy to contribute when I can with my perspective. Since getting the 70-300 after my 2006 safari it is my primary safari lens. In 2005 I used a little Canon S2, my first introduction to digital. For 2006 safari the Nikon D200 just came out and I knew I had to have a SLR type camera. So got it and the 18-200 for 2006 safari. After it, since 2007, the D200 with 70-300 is what I use most. I also take a D40X with the 18-200 on it. As you said, often you need a wider angle lens than 70mm. Your 80-400 is a good lens. I don't know what wide angle you have but the 18-200 does a good all around job. And if you can put it on another body it's nice not to have to change lenses and nice to have a back-up body. And, also should the 70-300 go south you have another semi-telephoto.

So for upcoming Sep safari, Kruger, Kings Camp, Kirkmans Kamp I'll take D200 with 70-300, D40x with 18-200, and a Canon S5 for video and another backup still camera. That's half my kit, the other half, same size and weight is batteries, chargers, cards, back-up drives, sensor/lens cleaning supplies, etc etc etc

regards - tom

Tap water may be "safe" to drink, but that does not mean its safe to drink. Different bacteria reside in different parts of the world. The water technically is OK to drink, but if you are not from the area, your body has no resistance to the bacteria found there. Its best to drink bottled water in 3rd world countries, although you can get sick anywhere from water you are not used to.

Mike

Agree Mike, I try to take few chances and thus drink bottled water. Although I do have ice in my Cokes and G&Ts. Maybe the toxic acids in Coke and alcohol in gin kills the water bugs

regards - tom
ps - and coffee/tea, what water does a camp use to make those?

Carrie - Yes, we might be able to give a compare & contrast when we get back.

My operator is still waiting to hear from KC - I'm hoping it can work out that we go there. Have been swayed by some of the descriptions of intimacy vs. hotel feeling -- altho' I know either will be fabulous.

The camera questions are a whole 'nother ball of wax. I am strictly a p&s person and I take it that will not work for this trip. Will have to invest in something a step up - -at least with a decent zoom. I know there are tons of posts on camera equipment that I'll be researching at some point.

Tom, I'd love to be able to bring two cameras but I try to travel with just a carry-on so it is a little difficult...but switching lenses on the fly is hard (as I'm sure you know! Not just in missing things...but the dirt factor too). You've inspired me so I may try and fit a second in with the 18-200VR for the next trip...maybe if I leave home all my clothes Well, not all...!

Leslie, yes, you'll find a lot of posts on photography and I think they will be very helpful to you. My only advice to you would be to get your camera far enough in advance to get some good practice in with it before you go.

Carrie - The first reason I take the D40x, the second body, is for backup to the D200. If I were on safari and my only camera broke, I would have to fly over to Joburg and get another one!!! So its "insurance" that's useful. Useful, once you try two bodies/lenses on a game drive you won't go back to just one.

Bless you for being able to safari with camera kit and only a carry-on for it and everything else. I'm happy to just get only the camera kit on carry-on. My few clothes etc simply have to go checked.

regards - tom

I find the fact that MM want inexperienced guides (and that's what they are - the knowledge of wildlife is just one aspect, dealing with guests is quite another) baffling. I wouldn't call their three month training extensive either, certainly not compared to other camps. No-one comes out of any training - safari guide, army, medical, whatever - and is fully effective. However, being inexperienced they also cost a lot less to employ - which is probably the bottom line.

Ever wondered why they only have one black guide at MM, seemingly the only one they've ever had? It was explained by one of the managers to that direct question from a guest. I was amazed at his reply.

Let's not go down the MM spotters route...although I guess it's a mute point if they have been on strike for six months. Perhaps MM will do a Wilderness and do away with them altogether to save money.

Carrie - Tom's right about having two camera bodies. I always take two after being on a trip with a photogrpaher whose one and only body broke on the second day. He looked so depressed for days afterwards - I thought he was going to throw himself to the lions.

You're both right - I should bring two. I have two camera bodies, but it was a space issue last time because I was on a small plane and probably will be again for the next trip. But I would be devastated if it stopped working! I think I'd have to seriously consider Tom's comment about the flight to Johannesburg to get another. Maybe I can just wear one around my neck at all times and that way they won't count it as suitcase weight...

Tanky, ever see any female rangers at Mala Mala? I know lots of fine lodges have hired great female rangers. I have heard that Mala Mala does not, but I have not confirmed that. One of my best rangers is a young lady working out of Lion Sands.

Mike

Mike, I didn't see any on my one visit there and haven't heard of any. I'd be unlikely to return to be honest unless there were major changes to bring MM up to the level of other similarly priced camps.

+1 Tanky

I've been on vacation, but am happy to answer a couple of the points raised here.

MM is I believe changing their style and certainly their attitude to rangers, they are recognising that the industry is changing and that they are in danger of being left behind. As to only one black ranger, there were three at MM in January with at least two more in training at that point.
MM's policy of the ranger spending all meals with guests makes for a much more demanding schedule that at Singita for example, where the ranger's had much less face time with the guests.
The head ranger was not sacked for visiting a friend at another camp. He was sacked for doing so while at work, there's quite a difference when read that way. My own employer would not be thrilled if I couldn't be found in a time of emergency because I'd sloped off to visit a friend.
All the MM staff is on a work stoppage since December 12th. Already amongst the hihgest paid staff in the SSGR (though I have not seen proof, pay stubs etc) their local union official incited a strike. The local labor board allowed a lock out, and management introduced new staff, who were performing well when I was there in January. It was sad to miss so many well known faces, particularly knowing that many may not get their jobs back and will certainly never recover the wages lost during this period. Interestingly MM have found that they need far less staff, they were actually quite inefficient because they wanted to provide work, now they will have less staff and make even more money (gasp).
MM has no female rangers yet - their somewhat older, conservative owners have not moved quite that far, I'm know the next generation are chomping at the bit to make all kinds of changes, but can only move so fast. Some of my best experiences have been with female rangers, they certainly drive in a more comfortable manner than a lot of the young guys.

Second the advice on Pafuri - no way can it support four days, unless you are a mad birder, it can do two days.

Hi Matt

As always, nice to hear a voice of reason!!!

Kind regards

Kaye

ps I will also be staying two nights at Pafuri but will probably miss the last morning gamedrive as we need to be at MalaMala by 2pm.

The industry changed years ago, the reaction seems to be slow at best and insufficient at worst.

As for the ranger being sacked, I heard that a Mala Mala employee can be fired for 'socializing' with anyone employed at another lodge, during work hours or not. Employees are not employees, they are indentured paid servants.

Napamatt's comments has confirmed much of what I have heard. Hiring two black rangers is not enough for me to come close to changing my mind about MM management.

I absolutely hope with a new generation that more major changes will come to pass.

Mike

napamatt --
Were you at Pafuri recently? I know I read your trip report but can't remember which year that was. Graeme's comments above made me think it had gotten a bit more game-intensive v. just birds so that 3 days will work for us.

Graeme said:
As far as Pafuri goes, I have been fortunate to visit Pafuri Camp a couple of times. I first visited in 2005 shortly after the camp opened and can confirm that the game was extremeley scarce at that time. The guides used to focus on birds then as there was very little game to be seen. Hardly an animal in fact! Having been back since then I have seen a huge increase in the game viewing, particularly in the dry season (May-November). The general game densities are as good, if not better than further south in the park. I have also had great sightings of lion and leopard and can confirm that the Luvuvhu River supports a high density of leopard. The birding remains good, but certainly not the only reason to visit Pafuri anymore.


I also know that they've just started off-roading this April which should be beneficial.

At any rate, the package we're looking at for a 'deal' is 3 nights Mashatu/3 nights Pafuri so I think that's what we'll be doing. Sounds like the scenery is also a big plus and I can appreciate that even if not seeing as many animals as will will at Mashatu & Kings.

Mike (mytoss), I completely agree...MM is about 15 years behind the times despite what it's vocal supporters say on this board.

I went to MM largely based on the reviews and experiences I read here...to say I was disappointed with what I found would be an understatement. I won't make that mistake again which is why I'm somewhat outspoken in my criticism when the MM ra-ra crowd start up.

Blimey. I didn't know they'd just recruited some black rangers. It'll be women next, you'll see. It's the beginning of the end!

KayN
"As to all those who have not had a good ranger experience at MM, that has never been my experience and as most would know, I have been there a lot over the last 8 years and have experienced a lot of rangers, and I have always had a really good experience with MalaMala rangers - always! Not so with fellow guests, but that is another subject! A knowledgeable and entertaining ranger is a must when I spend so much time with them - a dreadful ranger does make a dreadful gameviewing experience, and while I have had that experience, it was not at MalaMala.

But I prefer to think about the good ones and not go on and on about the negative experiences!"

Nicely said! I have been to Mala Mala twice now and I referred several friends. All were thrilled with the experience. Hope all this Mala bashing dosen't put new readers off of going there. Anyone care to speculate as to what is really driving these negative comments?
Ted

Temba
What makes you think there is a MM bashing going on?

If a fodorites asks for experiences - good or bad - everbody with such is entitled to post. Doesn't matter whether a MM-fan gets "hurt".

MM is not only "behind" it's driven by greediness, guiding its employees in a fashion which belongs to the far past and the management skills have proven to be somehow questionable.

The only thing I can imagine counts positively: they have got the largest concession. But IF a leopard crosses over into another concession it's also lost for MM

And the tensions between the neighbors don't lead to cooperative game viewing.
I know of several which share traversing rights. But if you ask another lodge about that in view to MM you will get rolling eyes and strange comments.

I assume we all are not being paid for posting certain opinions. Correct me if that's not the case please.

SV

MM is probably the single most visited camp on this forum. Maybe by 10 to 1? And I'd speculate the most widely known safari camp in Sabi Sand Reserve. Perhaps in all of Africa. So it will have the occasional dissatisfied customer. Some camps will never get criticized (Singita) because anyone spending that kind of $$$ could not bring themselves to admit that it was not well spent. And if that amount of $$$ is not meaningful to them, they are not on Fodors forums. See http://www.millionairesconcierge.com/jet.htm

MM is the largest and THE prime property in Sabi Sand, the Sand River runs through it for several kilometers. If I had a concession in Sabi Sand, I'd also be envious of MM property. Most other camps HAVE to share traversing rights with other camps. They are so small that if they did not share there would be no need for game drives, you could see their whole property from your room veranda!!!

SV - "I assume we all are not being paid for posting certain opinions. Correct me if that's not the case please." Are you perhaps suggesting that someone(s) is being paid to -bash- MM so that other camps get more business?

regards - tom

Thank you Tom, I think you have summed it up nicely. Heck, you have even managed to understnad and sum up SV's post. I have never even been able to understand him/her and don't bother reading or responding to SV's posts. For those who stumble upon this thread trying to learn more about different properties in the Sabi Sand, please read Tom's post again. Mala Mala is a fine place and a wonderful place to safari. The rangers are professional, competent, and likeable. The food is very very good and the accomodations are luxurious. Could any of these aforementioned qualities be better? well of course anything can be improved but for the money it's a pretty darn good (fantastic) place to safari. I just hate it when a few smart@$$e$ berate a camp or lodge or tour operator for undocumented and unsupported reasons. The doubt that these "not so well meaning posters" sew scares potential travelers away from some of the finest camps and lodges in Africa. I only hope those searching for Mala Mala information, read down to Tom's post before making a decision.
Ted

By the way spass(whateveryouare) why would you say "Furthermore I don't like the greediness which is clearly shown by charging for water which comes from the own plant", that's just false. Mala Mala doesn't charge for water and like many camps in South Africa, Botswana, and East Africa they do charge for liquer. Their charges are in fact quite reasonable.
Ted

In the interests of full disclosure I must alert you to the following fact. On several occasions while visiting MM, we have been invited to dine with the Rattray's and they never let us pay for any alcohol (or if I drank them, soft drinks), no matter how much we consume - and sometimes that's a lot.

Leslie
I was at Pafuri in January - admittedly the wet season was game is spread out. I had read the game reports for Pafuri and was hopeful of a little cat action, but got none. On Lions, a pride was establishing itself, when two males came over from Zim, killed everyone and then marched back across the Zambezi not to be seen again. (At least that's my recollection of the story). As for Leopards,the area should support them, but we weren't lucky. With three days you should be able to visit the Gorge, which we did not. The camp is lovely, the staff very friendly and the food excellent. I'm sure you'll have a great time, and open yourself up to the possibilities of birds. Think now how seeing a wild animal in the US excites you after being in Africa. But how often do we see Deer, Coyote, Bobcat etc? But if you get thrilled by birds, they're all around, certainly makes life more rewarding.

oops- "liquor" sorry I drink wine and also don't get out much.

So there is no doubt for anyone about me. I am not paid by anyone to make any posts. I like everyone have my favorite places to stay and I make no bones about my preferences.

I personally would love to stay at a place like Mala Mala which may very well have the best game viewing in Sabi Sands. However for personal reasons, I do not wish to support an organization, which is my opinion, is run poorly in regards to employee relations.

There are many people who did not support South Africa during apartheid because of their beliefs. While I do NOT in any manner equate Mala Mala to apartheid, I am using this as an example of how personal beliefs can effect decisions. I do feel that their well known methods of operation are well behind current standards. If my comments are bashing, then you can interpret them any way you want. When I hear the same information from many independent sources on my trips, I have to make some assumptions about their accuracy. No one is out to get Mala Mala, they are doing themselves disservice in their management style.

Again, I would love to see them move forward and adopt reasonable rules of employment. This is not about pay, its about allowing people to have dignity and freedom in their work place that is consistent with other lodges and all modern employers in general.

Issues like charging for water/drinks are annoyances for me and all things otherwise being equal, would not stop me from visiting a lodge, but are worth mentioning since lodges do have different policies.

Mike

FWIW, the Rattray's also own Mashatu Main Camp and Tented Camp which I invite any of you to look at these links and the impressive history of rangers and staff.

http://www.mashatu.com/about_team_rangers.htm

http://www.mashatu.com/about_team_MJ.htm

Here is the 3rd link:

http://www.mashatu.com/about_team_TK.htm

Isn't John still at Mala Mala? http://www.malamala.com/pdf/JohnSibuye.pdf

To all of those who have all these negative comments regarding MalaMala,

Luckily you are a minority and you will never get a lodge that everyone loves or that everyone hates. I have certainly had an absolutely dreadful experience at a Sabi Sand lodge, and on my return I spoke about it on this forum, then I let it go! Something some of you on this forum seem reluctant to do and your ongoing negativity nows speaks volumes about you and less about MalaMala. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion from your experiences about MalaMala (though some don't need to go there to have an opinion) but is it something that needs to be said over and over and over and over and over again?

I am well aware of those that don't love MalaMala and believe me, I am happy about that! But to read this topic that starts with people answering the question asked, then starts this war of words is just ridiculous. No wonder the old timers of Fodors are leaving this site in droves! It should be a informative site, not a spiteful site.

Kind regards

Kaye

No Tom, that's mot what I said nor meant.

It's still amazing - as soon as MM is involved the pro and cons are just clashing. Why is that? Why can't posters post their experiences without being forced into a strangly evolving discussion?

As KayN mentions she did ones post a negative experiences and let it rest..........well - that's first a persional decision and secondly IF posters ASK for advice then - and that's what a forum is meant to be - posters should of course be allowed to answer without being offended for it because it's not feeding a certain opinion.

Regarding MM's occupancy or degree of brand awareness: That is resulting of the 80ies and 90ies and it did cost MM a fortune to get that standing.
The same as Singita - they have now the standing MM had in the earlier days - but of course for another reason.
MM was worldwide very well known for being the most expensive camp for decades - justified by the game but artificially pushed. The same as Singita today.
The more sad it is that the deterioration is man-made.

SV

Kaye, thanks for a great post. Too bad we can't run a filter on this forum and eliminate all of these senseless rants (like the one immediately above). Hopefully anyone searching for information concerning these camps will not be put off. On the other hand, I'm very happy that these "types", with all of the negative comments, choose to go elsewhere. And by the way, the Rattrays are delightful and charming people. The attemps to vilify them is ridiculous. Also this Mike character who continues to reiterate SV false comments about charging $ for water certainly has hidden motives or he wouldn't be repeating such a ridulous falsity.

Kaye you are also correct in your observation that this Forum has become nearly useless with the loss of so many of the old regulars.

Ted

To any and all following all of this rubbish: The following is taken directly from mytmoss's trip report and his exchange with the infamous spass?

mytmoss on May 23, 09 at 02:02 PM
"Thanks SV, I do not mind paying for alcoholic drinks, or maybe even sodas. I do not drink much of either, but I do consider water a basic and it should be included at an lodge of the level of Vuyutela or similar.

Ivory does charge for some wines, but not their house wines, they are included in all meals, drives and in between. They also do not charge for mixed hard liquor also. So at Ivory, I did not have to pay anything extra for anything.

As for Mala Mala, I have not been there and have no plans for going there for personal reasons. Knowing they charge for water does not alter my opinion of going there."

Unquote: O.K. here you have two individuals who clearly have never been to MM making false representations with the intent to put people off of what might well be a once in a lifetime experience. Shame on them both and again, it's too bad we can't filter out certain indiviudals. Then again, they would probably both love to filter me out
Ted again

I am absolutely sure that people will enjoy themselves at Mala Mala. If they want to go there, I have no doubt it will wonderful. I have stated on more than one occasion that Mala Mala probably has the best game viewing in Sabi Sands.

If I am wrong about the water....gee...sooooo sorry, they do not charge for water and that is good. I have clearly stated that I think that water should not be charged for. What you did not quote is that at Vuyutela I do plan on going back even though they DO charge for water, as much as I do not like it. So clearly water is not my deciding factor.

As for my comments about not going to Mala Mala, none of them are based on peoples trip experiences. So please, if anyone wants to travel there, I am sure you will have a wonderful time. If I went there tomorrow, I probably would have a wonderful time.

However I am not planning on going there because of other much more important reasons that I have stated, not including water. Fortunately I have choices of a lot of wonderful lodges that can and do provide once in a lifetime experience just as Mala Mala does.

And no Ted, I do not need nor want to filter you out. I have no shame for my comments. Taking a moral stand is not a reason for shame.

Mike

Mike

Moral stand? How do you feel about long time employees of MM being intimidated to stay on strike?

Mike, thanks for setting the record straight.
Ted

I am no fan of unions, but if they are on strike, I assume its for reasons that I am unaware of. I have been in a union myself that almost went on strike and I was against it (the strike). So I do feel for those that want to stay and work.

And by the way, I do not consider unions immoral, even though I am not a supporter of them. If their actions are immoral, then I would be against that too.

Mike

Curious that with tourist travel at record lows that Mala Mala has not adusted their rates or offered any discounts. That does suggest a disconnect by management from the real world. With that in mind and the great deals available in Botswana and Tanzania, I suspect that anyone doing the required homework will not choose South Africa. The numbers simply cannot be justified. Nevertheless, if your heart is set on a Kruger/Sabi type of safari (safari light) then I guess that is an indivdual choice. Honestly, it just dosn't seem like a good value at their current rate. Ultimately the marketplace decides the rate and so shall it be with Mala Mala as well as the other camps of that ilk. There is always Kenya (YUK).
Ted

napamatt -
I'll have to get a bird book & start getting geared up for that. I do think the pictures of birds you (and others) have posted are lovely - what is the one called? lilac throated roller? Really gorgeous.

Possibly Pafuri in October will be more game-y than what you experienced in January. I'll let you know next year!

try, Lilac Breasted Roller.

Ted, seriously, help me with my homework, for safari "value", can you recommend great camps (Wilderness?) in Botswana or Tanzania for less than $400pppn? And would airfare from USA to those camps be close to what airfare is to JNB, $1,600? I'm always looking for more safari at less cost.

regards - tom

Tom, that's a hard figure to reach but you can come close. Wilderness has extended their shoulder season to June 15th and the rates at many of their camps is $600/pppn. They are doing a "pay for six, stay seven" special so that works out to just over $500/pppn. That would include you air transfers between camps. The flight from Joburg to Maun is still Air Bots and it is very overpriced (about $500 round trip) so you have to figure that in as well. The alcohol is free if that helps. The bottom line for me is that Botswana is a better experience than South Africa, cost wise who cares, in 30 or 40 years it will make no difference.
Ted

Oh, and for the record, Mala Mala is still a fine camp/lodge.
Ted

Thanks Ted, $500 is within range. Flight to Maun and then to camp hurts. I've never had really good safari in Botswana. Only safaried once, four nights at Khwai River Lodge on our very first safari, 2005. KRL was ok, but would not go back. I've been turned off by Wilderness because of their "own" agent thing and that they differ in price by 15%, so I've heard.

regards - tom

Tom

Bots is awesome, it's just been getting so expensive and it's a crap shoot as to whether Air Bots actually gets you there half the time. My agent is off to the Kalahari in December and I'm looking forward to considering that as an option with my MM trip in January.
Of course Mashatu is probably one of the best deals out there, it's a different Bots experience from the Delta, but great game and cheap.

BTW I live in CA - and the behaviour of public employee unions is mostly definitely immoral.

Matt

I thought I read that another airline was flying into Botswana now and I remember being surprised that Botswana was allowing it. Was I dreaming?

We loved Pafuri!! My significant other and I spent 3 nights at Pafuri in early September 2008. We found the place to be both beautiful to the eyes and other senses and filled with a wide variety of game. We saw very few other tourists. We could sit in our room and watch the animal show in the river including incredible elephant scenes, eland, monkeys, buffalos, crocodiles, hippos, antelopes, birds and raptors. We had three leopard sightings. We saw over 50 different species of birds. We saw a herd of over 500 buffalos pass in front of our vehicle after drinking water at the river. Saw many night creatures during the night drives including genets, civets, bats, nightjars, owls and bushbabies. We were stalked by elephants and buffalos every night going back to our room. Our guide, Edward, was incredible. Met the head of Africa WWF who was staying at the camp before going to other countries to disperse monies for conservation. Loved going to Landers Gorge. Would go back to Pafuri in a heartbeat.

The $$$ for Bots has kept (and is keeping) me away. The Wilderness deal of pay six get seven is not a huge discount, 14%. Doesn't sound like they are hurting that bad. I know there are fantastic Bots camps but getting to camps in South Africa is easier and less $$$. Plus I love the Kruger experience and its such an economical way to stretch your safari budget. My upcoming 20 days of SA safari, at Kruger 7, Kings Camp 8, and Kirkmans Kamp 5, averages out to $260 pppn. (This includes -all- expenses for Kruger, car rental etc.)

Self driving in Bots could be tempting. Should be able to do that for $250 pppn.

BTW Matt, I also live in CA (as you likely know)and half of the labor unions here get whatever they want by paying off the politicians. Not to mention our joke of a state government and those two Senators we send to Washington. But now this is indeed waaaay off topic!!!!

regards - tom

sundowner,

No you were not dreaming. Actually Soth African Airways had applied for landing rights and flight priviliges to Maun in Botswana. Initially everyone thought that Botswana Government would grant those flight priviliges but at the last minute they refused. Botswana is very protective of its own airline, Botswana Air, and is fearful that the competition will hhurt their bottom line. So you get to Maun either by Air Bots, or nothing. I can appreciate the Botswana Governments point of view, they are a tiny country living situated between a lot of crazy neighbors (South Africa included) and they must maintain the viability of their own little airline or risk isolation and the financial hardship that would occur if for example South Africain Air were to go on strike or have a work stoppage or slowdown. Remember that Botswana is a small country (fewer than 2 million people) while South Africa has a large (50 million people) population. Botswana primary source of income comes from diamonds and tourisim is the second most important industry. Given that their is No diamond industry right now, they must protect their tourisim industry. Actually I think they do a better job of governing then the State of California. Hey Tom, perhaps you could get a California State Grant to travel their on a "fact finding mission". But back to point, only Air Botswana for now and it is a very overpriced flight.

One other point perhaps a bit off topic but appropriate for anyone considering a safari in South Africa vs Botswana. Most of the quotes you receive from agents will include your airtransfers between the different camps (note: not from Joburg to Maun but between camps). This is an enormous plus in that you really do spend all of your time on "game Drive". Usually you fly out after your morning game drive and arrive well before your afternnon drive (most flights are less than 30 minutes). Once you experience a Botswana style safari it is hard to go back to anything else. Comparisons between different camp management styles (Kwando vs Wilderness) are really minor as compared to the difference between a South African style safari and a Botswana Experience. Is it worth the cost difference? Only the person paying can decide.
Ted

Ted

Thanks for the airline update, and I agree with the different experience, I love both, just wish I had the time to factor in extra days to save the anxiety of not knowing whether Air Bots is going to get me to JHB in time for my flight home.

Matt

"charge a single supplement if you are flying as a single"

Even if there are other passenger(s) on plane? I understand if I am the only passenger, the minimum is two, been there. But if I am single and there are others, still SS for me? Maybe I don't know what a typical flight to Maun is, size of plane etc.

And FWIW, I'm not finding the discussion about MM management/labor objectionable. Nothing wrong with different honest perspectives. Certainly a lot more civilized than has been in recent past. Did the Fodors Forum changes somehow inspire us to be more courteous? I say ol'chap, well done!!!

regards - tom

For those of you interested in Botswana, a friend of mine just told me that Nitani http://www.nitani.co.za/ is offering pay for 2 days and stay for 3. I have no idea of prices, just posting it as an FYI.

Mike

Tom,
You might want to ask the editors to remove your last post, above, since it makes no sense now that they (the editors), have pulled the offending misinformation that prompted your reply. In the meantime, to prevent this thread from becoming a source of even more miss and disinformation let me state that "You pay NO single supplement when flying between the various Wilderness Camps (Sefofane Air)". Also, you pay NO single supplement when flying alone on Air Botswana between Joburg and Maun. The bottom line is the bottom line, there is no getting around the fact that Botswana is an expensive safari destination. There are some self drive options but they require more skill and knowledge than similar trips in South Africa. I can't imagine finding a $250pppn rate at any of the well known Botswana concessions. Even "green season" rates will be over your budget.
Ted