Do Operators Talk Amongst Themselves?

I can imagine if you ask 3 or 4 TO for a quote that at least 2 of them request the availability if there is no real time availability check via the net.

So the camp has got at least 2 requests for one period and ask for name to make a prov. booking or at least give that file the name. At least that was what happens when I do my bookings: the camp puts a name on that request - which is shown at the ref. when mailing.

So the camp might have informed these TO about the other pitching TO's.

I assume you have informed your TO's of your own research so all knew they were doing pitches - and not just giving out numbers

SV

Based on very limited experience in Tanzania, not Kenya, I would say some TOs know each other and have some idea who is requesting what and from whom, probably because of what SV describes above. These occurrences may be more common at higher price points with more unusual, less canned itineraries (I wouldn't know ).

I haven't had my words quoted back to me--yet. That would bug me too. I did get a strange feeling that I was somehow known by some people in Arusha whom I had never met. But that's a story for another time...

Enjoy your trip, flowerpower. It will be wonderful!

A few years ago I had my usual TA make reservation for me at a couple of camps in SA. Shortly thereafter I contacted another local TA (Kenya specialist) about a different itinerary going to Kenya and also to include one of the SA camps (that I had reservations at with the first TA). Well, the second TA got back to me all insulted because when they called that SA camp they found out I already had a reservation there. They could not comprehend/handle the situation. I told the second TA to forget it all. They lost that and any future business with me.

Then there is the story I have related here about Wilderness Safaris. I had heard on this forum that Wilderness agent's quotes can vary by 15%. So I made an email request from two different agents in the USA. But didn't happen, I was assigned to work with one agent only. The higher priced one??? Didn't care for that situation either.

regards - tom

That is what I think has happened and now that I have heard from several of you that doing my own research, sending out requests for quotes - yes I could see a property stating they already have a request for availability in my name.
Just seemed strange, as I know a lot of people on forums are doing their own legwork and just asking for availabilty and pricing.
Oh well, I have made my choice and know it will be fabulous!

I would not recommend those who made the comments back to me - put me off a bit.

Felt like getting if off my chest as it was bothering me. Thanks for the support,
FP

Not quite the same but - I asked a few operators for quotes on a proposed itinerary and one wrote back to let me know he couldn't book my rooms because I was already booked at the camps. Well, I had never gotten to the stage with any of them where I said I was ready to book but I figured they must just grab the rooms up front and cancel them later. When I did eventually pick the operator I decided to go with he had some difficulty in getting the rooms since they were still provisionally held for another operator. I had to write the camp to request that they be released.
Anyway, not sure if that has any bearing on your question but I found it odd!

As SV mentions, if when requesting quotes, many of the properties require a name (client's) for that camps/dates. Then when another agent comes in for the same name, dates, camp... el problemo!

The 2nd agent will be advised and knows the client is "shopping." Though there is no issue with a client doing so, especially for the smaller and hi-end properties, this can still become an issue. Two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time!!!

Should the client wish to book the overall itinerary with the 2nd agent, then the 1st agent has to cancel their booking in order for the 2nd agent to have that space... and that 1st agent can take as long as they want to cancel.

Have had this happen with (a well known company with all hi-end camps/lodges throughout Africa) bookings... who are terrible releasing a previous hold.

All part of doing business.

Most of the in-country booking offices/outfitters know one another, speak amongst themselves and share info. But to repeat exact words a client wrote to one to another... goodness! Dumb, Dumb, Dumb! Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!!!

I guess I've worked a bit differently because I've never given exact dates when inquiring with more than 1 TO. I've given them a time frame so they can quote me the correct rates and usually at that stage, I don't know my exact dates anyway. It's not until I've narrowed it down to the operator I want to work with, that I've asked for an availability check.

I've never had a TO ask me if I was working with another TO or give any indication that they had seen my communication to another TO (even if they did know about it which I suppose is possible).

This is very interesting to me --and I did want to add I have not given exact dates as I don't have the air dates yet - it was during a time frame of 2- 3 weeks; that is why I wondered if the small lodges discussed it with each T/O or if they (TO) were just communicating amongst themselves.

Now, after more thought it does not matter to, me as I did honestly tell each I was working with several;I was very upfront that "I have contacted several KATO ops" upon asking for their itinerary pricing.

But I did get back some replies that made me think they were having "tele-conferences!"

I just felt it was a bit personal exchanging info, but in all business' there are going to be some "put out" by the fact that some travellers do like to get different itinerary costs from several ops. It is important for me to know where my money is going.

And, I do want to add in asking for a cost breakdown, I did find a discrepancy in a price given that was immediately corrected and brought the PER NIGHT per person price down by several hundred. It could have been a typo, but if I had not seen it, I may have ended up paying it!(times several nights makes a difference!)
I was glad I did ask to see air fares, transfers and nightly costs. I did not ask what they were making as I do not care..as long as I can afford what they offered and am willing to pay it, what their commission is can remain their business as it should.
I will say, as I have heard from fodorites often, that the cost of going straight to a TO is far less than the glossy, sleek brochure companies! (I guess pretty paper with glorious photos is very expensive overhead)

Thanks again for all the wonderful support from this forum.
FP

Most requests are for a time-frame, a month or months, and not till a client wishes to book is verificationn of space done. A small number of booking offices handling small properties, prefer to have approximate dates to determine whether space is even available, rather than quote for something that isn't.

So it can vary, but sharing specific details about a client between agents... ugh! Never would.

That's creepy flowerpower. I'd probably have dropped the company who regurgitated the same language, and let the company you originally spoke to know that they are busted, and ask them to explain.

I just had an experience where we were shopping around for a Tanzania trip. We told one TA the identical itineray had been undercut by another TA by about $4000. The first TA was very distressed and kept quizzing us on how we got that price and who was the agent, then got angry when we wouldn't tell. It must be stressful because of the economy.

It's possible that an operator may have picked up some information from this forum. I am willing to bet that there are many operators out there who read everything on the forum, but never register to post.

Well Done LyndaS
We do watch and we don't want you guys. You mess us around, abuse our services, and complain all the time. Give me one good reason why we operators should take the time to look after a bunch of nut cases on Fodors.
JW

Two reasons - business, money
Good reasons??? Depends.
But we know you're a

regards - tom

Ok Tom I accept your post.
What do you do for a living?
JW

Tom
Where is answer
JW

LOL - well I mean Loughoutlowd
Excellent post! I really mean it! I understand where you are coming from.

Lynda
I heavily doubt your "bet". Why should a TO lurk? There are some here who openly try to promote their business or their contracted camps and post influential opinions. Others try to help and/or advise. Why should LURKING enhance one's professional life is beyond me.

SV

Laughoutloud, I hardly think anyone getting ready to spend thousands of $$$ is a nut; on the other hand, you are RIGHT-
I am a Nut for spending that kind of money -
and should just have a "staycation" reading the forum.


I was just passing along what happened to me; I am sure most intelligent travelers try to get several quotes from companies to see how they compare. Obviously a really cheap one would cause doubt, and a really high one would get tossed.
I can also tell by how they respond whether it is someone I really want to work with.
If they want to share info, go ahead; just be smarter about it.

I think it goes on...sorry LOL I really do. I see you haven't posted anything previously, so you must be reading (lurking?)quite a bit to have found this topic.

If you'd like to PM me, I will send you my proposed itinerary for your consideration.
FP

Tom
Where is answer
JW

ok, ok give me a chance, I'm sort of busy working outside on a house project. We can do that all year round here in beautiful sunny southern California!!! You can check my Fodors profile but it doesn't say directly that - I am retired from 32 years in the computer business. Now keep myself occupied by ongoing self made projects involving house, car, computer, photography and -travel-. But confess, spent all day yesterday at Disneyland with Carolyn and her granddaughter .

BTW JW, how do like my self portrait???
And since you have been a member here for all of two days it is time for an introduction for yourself. So your turn JW -

regards - tom

Tom, I love California.
Wish I were there now as its gloomy and wet here.

JW - who are you?

FP

SV - the answer to why a TO would lurk is 'research'. I am sure some like to keep in touch with what's happening - could be for the sake of knowing what's out there for competition, could be to see what people are saying about their company, or themselves if they are a driver, could be for the same reason we read it (knowledge), or could be just plain curiosity. And, having actually read and understood the rules, maybe they don't post because they don't want to break any rules by mistake, or they take them very literally, or they just plain like to read, and not post.

Researching is a good thing and I'm still willing to bet that there are plenty of TO's who lurk. And that includes big companies that can afford to hire staff to 'research' for them.

As the owner of a very small bookkeping/consulting business I have never researched my company name (as it is just me & my husband & too small for that) - but I do indeed do a google search on my name every so often just to see what's out there on the internet about me. TO's could do the same.

FP-maybe you already HAVE submitted it to 'JW' or 'LOL', maybe he/she is 'xyz' operator

Lynda,
Well, JW better hurry up and get back to me with that pencil sharpened

FP

Sorry
You guys are too late
JW

Dear Spassvogel
My apologies for not responding to your supporting post.
Thank you very much for your support.

Happy Safaris

LOL - LOL

SV

Fodors as usual. What a shame!!

Since this thread has deteriorated from its original topic..

As soon as I read “talk amongst themselves” I immediately thought of Coffee Talk with Linda Richman. I bet I'm not the only one. That SNL skit was hilarious. Here is an excerpt.

Linda Richman: So, Stephanie and I are getting ready for Monday night, because she's throwing an Oscar party.

Stephanie: It's not a party. I'm just gonna get a platter of franks in a blanket from Zabar's and some butter rolls.

Linda Richman: Ach, I love butter rolls. They're like, well, they're like butter.

Anyway, we have lots of predictions to make and many disappointments to share. To begin with, three of the top most talented women in show business were not nominated: Debbie Reynolds and yes, Barbara Streisand. It makes me very emotional. I'm getting a little verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: Rhode Island is neither a rhode nor an island.

There, I feel better. I feel better.

Stephanie: Wait; I almost forgot the other one that wasn't nominated, that Courtney Love. She's a singer too.

Linda Richman:, Ach. Hey, she looks like my pupik. Also, may I just say something, what was with that movie "The English Patient"?

Stephanie: I liked it.

Linda Richman: What's to like? That movie made me feel like The Mental Patient. And don't get me started with the actor's name. Ray-ph Fiennes? I don't think so. It's Ralph, honey. What, do you think I buy my Polo by Ray-ph Lauren? And what was with her name - Kristen Scott Thomas? Girl, boy, boy. Who are you? Pick a gender!

Stephanie: I'll tell you what I didn't get - that "Secrets and Lies" movie. That movie was so long, my bangs grew in before it was over.

Linda Richman: You want to hear a secret and a lie? The movie's great. Anyway, the good news is that Billy Crystal is hosting this year, who I love!

Stephanie: Oh, me too! He was on my airplane once. He had a vegetarian meal and a Diet Pepsi.

(and so on)

Now where were we? Oh yeah, laughing out loud!

How this went from tour operators to the mysterious and weird LOL to Linda Richman I'll never know. But funny Lynn, I'd forgotten her. I can't stay up to watch SNL anymore (and don't like taping it). Now I'M getting verklempt.

I'm just happy I was able to offer up a few laughs with all the chaos in this world .. I had no idea this posting would make everyone L-O-L.

Oh yeah, where were we? Billy was also wearing a mask.

FP

#
LaughOutLowd on Nov 7, 09 at 8:51pm

Fodors as usual. What a shame!!

******************

sorry, I don't understand a word now.............not to mention that reaction.

Sad.

SV

lynn - Oh too funny... Linda Richman is and always will be good for a laugh! Talk amongst yourselves!!! How though, could you recall all that? Thanks!

I'd like to say I have a photographic memory. But I found this exchange on the net.

... nothing wrong with that.

Me, I have a memory like an ink blotter.
I pick everything up - but - I get it all backwards!!!

regards - tom

When that happens, all you can say is:


Dammit I'm mad!

!dammIt im maD

yeah, that's what I am!!

regards - tom

I am so glad to see that this thread has not gotten nasty..thats great, even some lovely humour thrown in by atravelyn. That is so great, lets LaughOutLowd and enjoy Africa. For a moment I did think it would turn sour but it did not and thats great for you guys.

flowerpower, Africa is a great place to visit and it does not matter whom you use as a TO just go and experience something on this earth that will change your life. When you come back I and of course all the others would love to hear your views.

Folks, lets LOL and enjoy this post.

Happy Safaris

Hey thanks LOL, I am looking so forward to a trip of a lifetime and what I have learned here - whether from fodorites obsessed with Africa and sharing that obsession, or To's who contribute with useful, helpful, sometimes funny observations & experiences, etc. has really assured me that I will be falling in love, not only with the animals, but the guides, the staff and the entire ecosystem of a safari!

Appreciate your coming back really laughing with everyone.

FP

LOL - yeah sometimes it's really amazing how civilized we are

Happy landings! And I don't mean a hippo pool

SV

FP - Its only my pleasure. BTW, I am not one of the TO's you dealt with just another TO who is in love with Africa and my identity will remain unknown according to the rules here. I cannot wait to see your report when you come back. You will be a changed person and I must warn you that Africa is addictive. I have seen it so many times on my guests faces when they return and it is to put it bluntly "Out of Africa"
When are you going and which camps are you going to.
I am not going to say "Have a great time" because that would be putting it extremely mild. Your outlook on life as you know it is about to change.
Look forward to it as there will be no turning around.


SV - You're so right. Its just a matter of flipping the coin and looking at the otherside. BTW why the red devil?

They're clowns, LOL.

Hey thanks LOL, I kind of knew you were not- but maybe you should have been, who knows?..no matter - When I do return and write my trip report - I'm pretty wordy as you can see - you can comment(and perhaps reveal yourself)

I do know for a fact that the wonderful, (and I mean all) KENYA tour operators I contacted were warm, friendly, accommodating and at times very funny. Unfortunately only one can do the deal and I hated having to chose.

On the other hand, I give all names out to others who ask in the event they would like to have such a pleasant experience (well maybe ONE exception, but I am hoping it was just a slip of the tongue and I happened to find out)planning a trip to Kenya.

I will gladly submit my plans and how they came to be when all the i's are dotted!
Again, between this forum and the great TO's who obviously love their country and enjoy planning and logistics, I was able to put together the trip of my dreams.

I Can't Wait!
FP

Hi LOL
It's not a devil - it's a CLOWN!



SV

One person's devil is another's clown.

Those aren't horns, it's hair.

I thought they were devils too!

In my book, clowns ARE devils. Hate them. Scary.

Anyhoo, I'm glad you have some sense of humor LOL, because based on your first posts you seem disdainful of consumers and I'm glad you're not my TO.

It's gettin' devil-y again now.

Right ATLynn, LOL has said he wants us to enjoy our planning and safari experiences, so let's give him/her benefit of doubt.

No clowning around

A clown? I always thought that little pink face was a pig!!!

This one's the pig

Ok, one more time, let's get this right once and for all -
clown
pig
devil (mean)
devil (she)
devil (he)
duck

regards -

I'd say LOL but i wouldn't want to confuse anyone with the poster LOL, so instead i'll write this thread is getting very funny. Really like all those little symbols.

Thanks teacher!

Very clever Twaffle.

WOW! I never knew this!

Clueless in Seattle!

Tom, you forgot other important animals like:

Cooncat
Alien (friendly)
Alien (ambiguously intentioned)
Cow (moo)
Trixie
Monkey (or is this a chimp?)
Michael Myers
Reaper (grim)
Fodorite

Regards,

Leely, the Fodorite one looks like Mrs Potato Head. I that how you see us all?

Twaffle,

I think smileys are more like Abstract art. For example, this is a photographic representation of Trixie:
http://www.pbase.com/leelygoes/image/111584029

Her smiley counterpart:


I could go on (and on) but not everyone finds deep beauty and meaning in smileys. Pity.

Not everyone is discerning, obviously! I can see the resemblance. Trixie is more beautiful though.

I need a clueless smiley! Help!!!

SM - maybe this
If your looking for the secret list of Fodor smileys, here it is -
http://www.fodors.com/community/smileys/

regards - tom

Hello Everyone
Hope you are all having a good day wherever you are.

Its raining over here and the sun is shining at the same time. Africa..what can I say. Just Beautiful!!

SV - What got me thinking it was the devil was the color red. What can I say. Red is the Devil.

LAleslie - I would like very much to address your post and especially the word you used "disdain"

Personally I think this is the right time for parties from both ends of the spectrum to voice opinions so here is mine from the TO side of things.

I have been in the industry for 2 decades and have certainly seen a lot of change. When I started out the internet was still been thought out and our only means of marketing was brochures and cold calling. Then the internet came and to cut a long story short every Tom, Dick and Harry had a website.
So what is the result. A potential guest like most of you get onto the internet and email around 5 to 10 online operators with the exact same request which eventually does come to the same desk. But thats not the point I want to make. The point is we all answer back timeously and go through roughly 3 or 4 exchanges until the final itineray and cost is given and then the guest dissapears off the face of the earth. Now is that NOT DISDAIN? We don't even get a thanks but I have to pay my consultants. Ever thought of that?

We do about 30 to 40 requests a day and why can't someone get back to us when we have given a final proposal after all the exchanges. Its not only my agency but many others. A simple 'no thanks" or "I have made other arrangements" or "thanks for your info I am now doing it myself" will suffice.

Now thats what I call disdain from our side.

flowerpower- Go and have a GREAT TIME!

Happy Safaris

Good point, LOL. Anyone requesting quotes should be courteous enough to let you know that they are going with someone else, given that you've spent your time to assist them. It's like when you are job-hunting, send in a resume' in answer to an ad and never hear back from the company. I always thought it was rude of the company not to at least acknowledge your submittal.

LaughOutLowd, I find it absurd that you would criticize customers for having to follow the ridiculous process and system that you (travel agencies/agents) have set up.

If I want to fly from here to there, the airlines have made it simple enough for me to compare flight prices. If I want to stay in a hotel once I get there, the hotel companies have made it simple for me to compare prices for hotels. Same for car rentals. Even restaurants post their menus.

But for your own reasons, safari providers have chosen to make their pricing as opaque as possible. This does everything to benefit agents and others in the safari industry, and it does absolutely nothing to benefit consumers. By having set up this system, you have willingly agreed to do that extra work of developing price quotes. It strikes me as ridiculous that you would then complain about customers who don't say "no thanks." All that you need to do, Laugh, is to state your prices up front on a web site, and there'd be no need for you to develop individual quotes.

Dear Rizzuto
You would find everything absurd would you not?

Happy Safaris

well said rizzuto

regards - tom

Folks
Keep this post clean and ingnore people like rizzuto who only has anger in him for some unknown reason. Why rissuto did you attack my post?

Happy Safaris

Rizzuto did not attack your post. But you use that excuse to ignore his good points. So, allow me ask the question. Why does your industry make it difficult for we your customers to determine pricing?

regards - tom

OMG - Don-t tell me you and Tom are gays

Thats Ok.
I guess everyone to themselves.
Have fun boys

Dear carry999
Thats a very good point. I will NEVER put my rates up on the internet as every Tom, Dick and Harry will copy me. If you want my rates you have to come direct to me.

And be quick as I am about to retire.

Love you all.

look (LOL) who's talking about Tom's Dick is Harry!!! I know you are, so what am I????

regards - tom

Tom, I wish and Rissuto a happy life.
Go for it.
Happy Safaris

Can we now get back to more serious talk or is this forum useless which I beleive it is.

Or do we have agay wedding?
I wonder

good bye LOL and have a good retirement

regards - tom

If you want my rates you have to come direct to me.

Based on your performance in this thread, no doubt you have hordes of customers beating a path to your door to avail themselves of your fine services.

Say hello to Lord Attenborough and his African tigers for us.

Helo Safari goers
Here you have it. See the idiots for themselves. Its your choice.
Me I am about to retire.
Happy Safaris

Rizzuto can you tell me more as I am not who you think I am

No, of course you're not, Laugh!

Bottoms up!

Rizutto and Tom -wait a second before you come to conclusions which are simply unjust!

When an individual approaches a TO and ask for the creation of a safari having no clue for what to go the TO starts summing up kind of status quo and then creates the safari around that particular human's interest and budget.

Then we come to the point when it becomes fun for the client and anger for the TO: the client mostly won't request the exact same itinerary from other TO but starts the whole process of creating an itinerary with a 2nd, 3rd.....TO. All itineraries are serving the client's interest but all are different.
So the client compares apples to peaches and finally gets down to the most "favourable" itinerary which by far is not comparable to the 1st quote - but somehow sufficient for that client.

Second - the TA/TO has got one instrument which is called "calculation". Any TO/TA has a different tool for that depending on margings/commission from hotels/lodges/carrier all depending on volume which again allows the TO/TA to "play" etc etc. all summing up to the final quote.

Why on Earth should any TO/TA disclose his/her calculation?

No business is obliged to do that. Why do clients request that from a TA/TO?

BTW - in Germany a TA won't disclose that. Particularly specialised ones give out "packages" or at the utmost modules from which the client can choose from putting together a more personalized itinerary.

Furthermore: Many specialists - not only in Germany but I know that also from Australia - consult the first 30 min. FOC. Then the client informs the TO whether he/she is interested in further consultation. That leads to a credit card slip of let's say 250AU$/200€ depending on expected volume of the trip. If the client finally chooses another TO at least the first one has got a payment for his/her work.

To me that sound just.

SV

FP
Would you have thought that this your thread would become that famous?

Excellent! Well done !

SV

Leely
THX for the smiley! LOVE it!

SV, thanks for your reply. However, it seems to me that you're saying that TO/TAs don't wish to disclose the commission or markup that they charge.

And that's where I believe the system is a failure.

As a consumer, why should I not be able to know if Agency A is charging 20% and Agency B 25%? You're telling me, in essence, that I ought to make a consumer decision without knowing the price I'm paying for an agent's services. I certainly wouldn't use a lawyer or financial consultant without first knowing his/her charges for professional services -- why should a travel agent be any different?

I believe that agencies should be allowed to publish the rates at which they will sell you trips. Tell me how much per night you'll charge at each lodge, tell me how much you'll charge for inter-camp transfers, etc. Tell me how much you'll charge for your expertise, if you want to charge separately for that.

It used to be the case that consumers relied heavily on TA/TOs both to make arrangements and for expertise. The latter function is not nearly so important now -- the Internet has usurped that function -- so informed consumers ought to be able to just purchase their accommodations and transfers (without having to pay an additional charge for expertise) if they're willing to do their own research.

Rizutto

Well, you have chosen to compare a lawyer and his/her service with that of a TO! Excellent.
Particularly as a lawyer charges from the first minute you get his/her consultation.

From a TO you get the first 30 mins FOC - but what you want is the full service for zero!

If you have consulted a lawyer and switch to another one you get a receipt for the time his/she has spent on you, doesn't he/she.

Now I try another way around to get across what I mean:

A travel agent charges a "price" for a product. It's not just his service!

Since when do companies like Woolworth, Rick Steves, Costco tell you how low/big their margins are?

Finally: Most camp/lodge owners or operators request by contract from TO to not undermine a certain rate in order to not start a vicious circle.

A package - as stated before - allows a TO/TA to play with different rates/models etc. creating a "product" which is tailor-made to the client's interest, request, need.

SV

oops - forgot my new TM

A bit different than what rizzuto is saying, but-
Let's use airline tickets as an example (perhaps over simplified?)
Do you remember when (I do) to get a plane ticket you went to a travel agent? The TA took your request and then started searching for times and fares. And next day got back to you with choices. You hoped the TA did a thorough search for you. But you have changed your returning date so the TA now has to start all over. Finally, four days later you had it all worked out and got your ticket from the TA. Did you like doing it that way? Or do you prefer it now where you can search the airlines directly or use Orbitz, explore dates, and fares yourself and get instant answers? I'd like this same capability for traveling in Africa. We may be half-way there.

regards - tom

http://www.fodors.com/community/fodorite-lounge/paying-lawyer-in-full-before-services.cfm

rizutto

above is an interesting thread - as you brought up lawyers

SV

Tom - good example!
The TA did not tell you the marging. Did he?
Was he obliged to tell you? NO!

He provided a service and charged. He changed and rearranged until you were satisfied! Good service.

The same with the TO! He/she also re-creates until the client is satisfied. But of course needs to be paid for the time he dedicates.

SV

SV,

Do you know what a straw argument is? It's a silly proposal that you make up and easily refute, and then claim that the person you're debating with had made the suggestion. It's a "straw" argument because it's made of a material that is very easy to knock over.

I don't care what Woolworth or Costco's margins are. I do care what Woolworth proposes to charge me for the 32-inch Sony HD TV and I do care what Costco proposes to charge for that same set. Just as I do care what you would propose to charge me for 4 nights at Lebala, 4 nights at Nxai Pan, air transfers between them and to/from Maun, with a private vehicle for my stay at Lebala. And I want to be able to compare the price if I go in August compared to March. And to see what the price difference is if I spread the trip over 1 more night, but to a 3rd camp.

With the current silly scheme, I have to make separate requests for each, with the turnaround times typically being a day, maybe more. And there should be absolutely no reason that you don't post those prices on a web site. But you would propose that we stick with the current model -- and that is in fact the way Woolworth and Costco and all retailers more or less did business 10 years or so ago: if you want to know the price of something we sell, you either have to come in to the store or call us.

Well times are changing my friend. Sooner or later some operator/agent, probably one with a track record of traditional TA/TO business, is going to get wise enough to turn into an online business. Put all the information online, let people put together their own trip online. Until the ground operators and camps get smart and can integrate their systems, the online TA/TO would need to manually verify and reserve availability. It will happen, and a great many of the rinky-dink TAs will find their market evaporate.

In the 21 century, it's strange that most people still rely on TA's to book their safaris ... Some of the ground operators have excellent websites (with regular updates) and you can find a lot of trip reports of indepedent travellers on the web.

Because ground operators are also aware of this, they reward TA's with a high commission to provide them with the necessary clientele. As long as this selective distribution model is used, clients will pay too much for their safaris.

Other possible reasons for today's high prices are the formation of cartels and greed ...

Are TA's knowledgeable??? Some of them really are but they are the minority. This is how it often goes ... client X asks a specific question and the TA doesn't know the answer ... he /she sends the question to the ground operator and after he/she receives the answer, the client is also getting a reply to her/his original question.

Some of the people posting here have more knowledge on safaris than some of the agents who frequent Fodor's.

Commission: percentage based or fixed - definitely fixed depending on how much hours spend to put together the trip. If the commission is percentage based (which is now the case), TA's are mostly thinking about their own deep pockets.
The fact that some of these agents have close ties with certain operators (which most clients doesn't know) also doesn't help to get a honest opinion.

I can see the case for paying a fixed sum for the consultation of the TA's services (even if you don't book the trip with him/her...).

rizutto
ONLINE booking is good for people who know exactly what they want.

I was talking of people who need to be phoned, interests evaluated, visited, want brochures - a personal service etc etc.

Of course for those of us who know exactly what we want - mostly - a website which offers just putting some components into a shopping card will be sufficient.

But these folks might be not available at weekend, for emergencies etc etc.

NO FRILLS TA - might work for some.

SV

gish - forgot my (new) TM

SV,

It is a myth that agents look after you whilst in Africa.

If there is an emergency on the ground, it is the operator on the ground that deals with it 99% of the time, not your agent back in Europe.

"cary999 on Nov 12, 09 at 12:34pm

look (LOL) who's talking about Tom's Dick is Harry!!!"

Where's the smiley for that?

And what would Linda Richman say now?

"Where's the smiley for that?"
The smiley I wanted to put for that is not supported by Fodors, a family friendly web site

regards - tom

Wow, you are right where have I been? Oh,right Ida is spreading her wealth of rain on us, along with wind,a few floods, etc.
But I can't wait to get back and see what I've missed.

I am still waiting for my final talley..with a breakdown of course.
lodgings - air - transport
Not too much to ask I think.

FP

What Rizzuto (not an arborio rice dish, LaughOutLowd) said. What Tom said. What Skimmer said. (And hey, I didn't know you were an item, Tom and Rizzuto! You must be "bi" coastal...)

I don't care about margins. I care about the cost to me. I need to shop around to get the best price. Ergo, I want transparency.

As for my contention about LOL's disdain for customers, I rest my case. You're in the retail business, buddy (or, madam). Get over yourself.

Now, I'm going to get myself a

To All Folks
There are some good points here. Lets try and keep this post civil and respect everyones opinion without malice.

I as a TO can offer advise from my side and you as the consumer can offer or tell us what you need. Together we can smooth the operation out and make sure everyone is happy in the end.

A few points I would like to add is that my agency does NOT charge for consulting. One of my senior consultants who has had 7 years experience with a major TA wanted to introduce it 4 years ago and I refused.

Another is the word used above "greed". I have 2 degrees behind me, Civil (structural) Engineering and Computer Science but 2 decades ago I chose to follow my heart and passion which is wildlife. I do this because I love it.

Folks, keep this thread active and productive and have a great weekend.

Happy Safaris

LOL,

As a novice amongst the more experienced posters here, my questions (sometimes spot on;more than likely just dumb)but ALWAYS answered and taken seriously endears me to the forum in general. I do understand as a "TO" you probably take offense to others you feel may be interfering in your field of expertise.

But reality here is the internet, and these forums have evolved to the point where a consumer is educated much more than in the past when all they saw was a brochure...and pretty much trusted their local travel agent to tell them what to do."Just book it"

That has changed; and with that I think (my opinion only) that the whole travel industry must adapt to that. If I see a rate posted on a website (and they are) why can't I ask the "TO" to do better than the rack rack - and how much better? Of course I'd want to get the best price (if only to enable me to stay longer on safari) Just like we shop for the best prices on airfare now to get to our destination; I want to know what I am paying. That is reality. I am not the person l0 years ago who would look at brochure price and say, ok.book it. I personally prefer different type camps than a group of say 20 would, and of course that group of 20 gets a much better deal. BUT, I still want to know where my hard earned money goes, just as you feel your hard earned hours put into planning a trip should be rewarded.

What is the answer? I have no idea, but I do think - as the above posters reiterated; travel has changed; consumers are more educated and research quite a bit. There has to be an answer but I admit I do not know what it is.


I certainly do not want to get into a shouting match, but if it makes you so unhappy for educated consumers to contact you, then I do think you are in the wrong business - but it sounds like you are getting out soon anyway. So good for you - travel, enjoy your life and check back in on occasion to see how all are doing.


I appreciate your wishes to me for a happy safari. I worked long and hard to accomplish this so I am sure I will have a grin on my face every day!

Thanks for your thoughts on my "original" posted question -which somehow evolved into another aspect of Operators- but it is what forums are all about.

I don't agree with everything I read here but I do love the options offered to me, the opinions of better versed folks in the safari world, and those that just like to post opinions. It is interesting, educational and sometimes just downright funny.
I can't imagine not sharing with Fodors as I never know what the response will be. You just can't take everything personally. Keep doing what you love in life and if it makes you happy - well you are lucky.

And,I do intend to talk to each and every TO I contacted and explain to them WHY I have gone elsewhere. If I want full disclosure from them I will certainly return it.

OK..By next week I should be able to post my TRIP ITINERARY - very superstituous until signed ,sealed & delivered!
FIRST MIGRATION, yay....can't wait.

Thanks to all for your involvement in my trip planning!

Fp

ilbj2
Now you obviously paid/got the wrong consultant!

My very first safari we had an overbooking and a plane delay in SA for Maun.
One SMS/textmessage to my SC in Germany sorted all out.

Cost me 10 €cents!

Maybe I paid her too much (marginally might have been 100€) but paid off in the end!

You guys just shop around on the net - as I do. I am connected to a lot of people in SA/EA and I am a privaté. No matter if I get stuck for a couple of days. Doesn't hurt me.
But in the earlier days it was quite good to have one to come to our rescue!

As stated: Booking yourself is excellent if you know what you are doing. For all others a decent SC might be the better option.


And yes - everybody deserves to earn!

SV - happy landings!

FP
Forums are excellent! They provide you we a wealth of information. But are these guys responsible? Of course not.

A decent TO/SC well pays attention to your needs and interests and he/she will do the utmost to serve you in order to keep you as a client.
Despite money is involved: a honest and frank rekationship between clients and SC is the most valueable asset you could get.
Forumites - no one to contact if difficulties arise - afterwards and claim anything.

Anyway - wish you well an hopefully you got honest advise

SV

AG FP
You cannot really differentiate whether you got some advise from professionals here in order to enhance their very own potential with any of the recommended camps/lodges.

So better be careful with what you take

SV

SpassVogel,
I NEVER said the fordorites planned my trip - I said they were very helpful in "MY" planning..obviously giving me OPINIONS on camps, air vs. driving, hotels to stay in upon landing in Nairobi ...normal discussions amongst fellow travelers.

When I contacted (and AM USING ONE OF THEM) the Op's in Kenya I did get a lot of information I did NOT ask for - i.e. I should stay in "X" camp instead of the one I WANTED..so I got the feeling they had an interest (i.e.financial) in trying to get me to use a particular camp.
However I do have a stubborn side to me and held out for what I wanted - even to the extent of contacting the camps directly, which was very interesting and in my trip report, I shall address that.

I never said I would travel without a "paid" contact with a TO in the country - I do not know where you got that from..I merely stated with the vast amts of info available on the web that the tourist industry is due for a change.

And I stick to that.

NOW, the quote you gave me: "A honest and frank relationship between clients and SC is the most valuable asset you can get."

That would be fine if when I asked a question I got an honest answer. Anything to do with costs was avoided. That is not an honest answer in my world.

So I feel you might be living in a dream world if you think all fodorites are useless and all To's are honest and frank.
There are always some good and some bad; that is why I stated earlier it is a choice we make to listen or not.


Nonetheless, I do hope you have a great time on your upcoming trip, come back with a fabulous trip report and pics, and I plan on doing the same!

This is why we have forums - for exchange of ideas, opinions, great trip reports and pics. I am not here to get into arguing about anything else. What I think is mine, and what you think is yours. That's about it. And-
That is what I am taking.

FP

FP
I honestly feel qwith yiu!

Finding a honest and sincere SC makes such difference.

Hope you post your trip retort! I must admit I never do............

I wish yo a great trip and a memorable safari! You deserve it!

SV

Hi FP
Just read your post now as I was away over the weekend. I think it is well balanced and has pertinant points. Things certainly have changed, I mean who ever thought in this day and age we would have a world wide recession created by the mightiest of nations with the worlds greatest brains.
As you say. "What is the answer?"

This is NOT a shouting match, I honestly wish you a good trip and look forward to seeing or reading the glee on your eyes.

Have a GREAT SAFARI!

Thank you LOL; yes I agree - some of the brains have drained for sure;
perhaps that is why I love planning my great escape to Kenya!

I am looking forward to realizing my great dream and do hope things progress in my country and in yours so that we all may be eventually financially secure and stable- and for sure, at peace.

Who knows, I may run into you at the mara (haha) I will have my cap on that says Make Flowers, Not War, and you will have LOL written all over yours

Thanks for contributing to my postings!

FP

FP
If the right wording is "Touche" then I am touched by a poster on Fodors.

You have my blessing.

G-D Bless

Laugh out Loud,

I thought the recession was caused by USA, your description seems to refer to somewhere else?